Inception

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SO I guess Planetnews is just going to -ve rep just coz he doesnt agree with me & he feels my point of view is not correct...
Got -3 from him already,...

Just coz he wants to give me a middle finger coz he feels my views are wrong and whatever he says is correct..

I have a feeling he will negative rep me here as well.
 
I haven't read the entire thread so I apologize if this has already been discussed or was something that's too obvious to discuss but I just wanted to say the key image in the movie for me first time around was the paradoxically self-generating and perceiving loop.

[spoilers="Inception"]If nothing else it appears in all sort of different forms at each level of film-within-film-within-film etc. Cobb's diagram and Ariadne's description of how her mind seems to be discovering as it's creating*; Ariadne closing Cobb in infinitely regressing mirror box (I think that was a pretty darn clever use of space too**); Arthur's looping staircases.

Finally the seeming causal loop whereby Cobb convinces Mal that the one reality isn't real and then goes on to convince himself - either through inception or some other process (private? collective?) -- that his "container" reality isn't real. The one he returns to in the end where (not unambiguously) perhaps he's "altered the memory" which is presumably just a further projection.

My feeling right now is you never really see the full outside referents that the projections (which are the film) reach in from. You do see Smith and his father in both an outer (not necessarily the outer) form and an inner, more metaphorical projected form (The father giving his son catharsis within the safe within the hospital within the fortress). I think that implies that there is likely an outer fully real world that Cobb's projections are coming from but I think that if you assume that the children haven't aged and are dressed the same and the top will likely continue spinning, then you never see that real form and so his projection remains distorted. Not much but that's about the best I could think of on my own (I mean, not fully on my own, I also talked to the people I saw it with and some coworkers).

*That circular diagram may also correspond to the circular maze that Ariadne draws, which convinces Cobb to hire her.
**The reflected "framing pillars" receding to create an underpass. It's also significant that the mirror trick seems to "calm down" Cobb's subconscious, at least temporarily.[/spoilers]

As for my personal experience of it, I did think the movie was a bit limited visually if the ideal form is dreams or Tarkovsky. But not every movie that I love has to look like a Tarkovsky movie and as for the way the plot unfolded I definitely found it more engaging than any of Tarkovsky's movies (some of which are among my favorites as well). I think the main thing for me is that there wasn't a single point that I didn't find my attention focused simultaneously on the movie and on my unselfconsciously joyful reaction to the movie which is pretty rare, maybe I see 1 or 2 movies a year like that. It's the words that count the most but even if it's been a while since I've given anything over [rating]4[/rating] when thought about soberly, I wouldn't have any trouble going higher than that just going by how much I felt my movie-watching-receptors "turned on" by Inception.
 
1. You've said some of the most insightful things I've seen on this thread. Don't apologize.

2. NO. Don't compare Nolan to Tarkovsky pleeeeaaazzzzeee. I see 0 similarity except in the most generic "type" of subject matter for this one specific film.

3. Are you familiar with the work of Douglas Hofstadter? Mainly his idea of the strange loop, the same self-referential feedback that occurs when a mic is pointed into the amp its connected to, or, in this case, Ariadne's infinitely regressing mirrors?

4. The top was wobbling a lot. I think Nolan was just a little too scared to even have just the littlest amount of actual ambiguity. Let's be honest here; the top was just about to fall down. How much more wobble do you want?

5. I don't mean to do a self-plug (oh yes, but I do ), but maybe check out my blog (homepage) post about Inception. It's almost nearly a direct response to your propositions about the lack of "outer, outer" projections. Ah hell, I'll just repost it here.

[spoilers="'Inception' Spoilers From Mai Blog Yall"]If taken at a purely literal level, there is nothing more at work here than simple Cartesian doubt-games. That is, I can doubt the existence of everything, but I can never doubt my own existence; we can all be figments of God
 
I don't think more intimate dreams really would have worked, actually, and I felt the reasons for the dreams being on such a grand scale were pretty well laid out.

For the training sessions, intimate dreams would be fine. But for the main sequence, no. You have to remember that Robert Fischer (Cillian Murphy) is a high powered businessman whose subconcious has been trained to guard against these intruders. His subconcious projections are militarized. As such, the maze put forth for him had to be on a huge scale and complex in order for him to believe it. The shootouts were justified because the team were up against Fischer's own subconscious militia.

As for Cobb's (DiCaprio) personal subconscious world, he and his wife spent what equated to 50 years building it. So it stands to reason that it would be on an enormous scale as well.
 
It's tough one. I think, for now, I will have to put Inception on par with The Dark Knight, which I consider to be '1b'. I'm going to watch it a couple of more times and come up with proper verdict as to where it stands. It's definitely better than Following, but i'm not sure if I think it's better than Memento, but at this point I can say it's pretty damn close. It's certainly the most ambitious film he has ever created and does more than enough to rise to it's ambitions.

I did this thing earlier in the year where I watched everyone of Nolan's films on the 16th of each month starting from January and finishing, of course, by Inception's release date, and I think that the films holds up well with the others. But need to watch it again.
 
My initial thought walking out of the theatre, which no one else here seems to have mentioned as a possibility, was that the end is a dream; not that the entirety of the movie is a dream, but that Cobb never truly woke up from limbo at the very end, while everyone else presumably did wake up. He instead, is living out his ultimate fantasy, to see his children's faces again. If everything that happens at the end is to be taken at face value, as I actually take the rest of the film, I just plain don't like the ending at all. It's way too clean and perfect and easy. Also, the ending seemed much too abrupt to me, if it's all supposed to be real. Ken Watanabe touches a gun in limbo and then they wake up and everything works out perfectly. I felt like more was going to happen. It leaves me unsatisfied, the idea that everything gets tied up so easily and quickly. If the end is reality, then has Christopher Nolan ever before made a movie with such an obvious and happy ending?

Of course, this isn't to say I think poorly of the film.
 
Yeah, I wasn't sure whether or not I'd be seeing it again, but now I'm pretty sure I will.
 
Repeat viewings won't harm, that's for sure. What do you think of the film's chances at the oscars?
 
D means a D I guess. I used to post at moviejustice which went on a letter grade system. I know a few people here still use the letter such as Holden. Transfering it to a score out of 10 I'm guessing it would be around a five maybe? Not sure.
 
After the post about Leo shooting people with a silencer and sliding to catch them before they fall, and now this, you are officially my favorite MoFo.
 
Ah, right. I think I may have misremembered it then..I really need to watch it a few more times. But Fischer was still trained.
 
What kind of answer is that..
I asked you how would Inception work without the action?? How would show the car chase, saito getting shot, Saito going into limbo..
Or did you want the whole movie to be based without guns...
The movie is a sci-fi action film... Majority went to see that & they got lot more than that....

You can't compare Eternal Sunshine, Paprika to this... You can't be artistic and expect to make money like Inception..
I think Inception was perfect the way it was made.. It seemed like it turned out just the way Nolan wanted it to.
 
One of my favorite moments of Inception took place in the snow fortress bit. Fischer is about to open the safe room vault, but a figure is entering the room from the ceiling. Cobb is following the torso in the scope of his rifle as the unknown figure drops down from the ceiling into the room. Finally the figures face is visible, and in Cobb's scope he see's Mal. Cobb can't pull the trigger. Ariadne says something like "She's not real" and Cobb repies "But how do you know?" and the expression on Cobb's face was bone chilling. I really loved that scene.
 
My rating: [rating]3.5[/rating]+

Sarah quoted her new Sig from I Thought My Father Was God. I know she doesn't believe that but c'mon already...

I thought these Zones were "Spoiler-Free."

The reason you don't recall Leo saying "Jesus Christ" when his wife dies is that it's probably one of the most normal things for a person to say when a painful experience occurs.

I like that planet noticed that the kids are exactly the same, filmed at exactly the same time, wearing the exact same clothes.... Now if, as the credits "claim", that the kids are a different age somewhere in the movie and "look differently", then I'm a blowhard, but the kids I remember in the flick are all exactly the same and in the exact same space. This leads me to believe that Nolan tried to fool me somehow by putting miniature "kids" in the exact same pose as real kids (no matter how often they are his [Nolan's] OWN kids.) I find that difficult to believe.

Another thing I just thought about was for the Prestige. His number one is Memento and Inception is what he may see as a followup to Memento. Now, Citizen Kane is obviously referenced in Inception when Fischer goes into his "father's" safe and cries.

I didn't notice anybody in here discussing their fave scenes. For example, the zero gravity hotel. Somebody may have said it was their fave, but did you notice that about 95% of it was played backwards in the movie. Only some of the intros and outros seemed to be shown forward in the flick.

Somebody said that Leo's top was not the same as his wife's, but I would have sworn that Cobb took the top out of his wife's "safe". As far as the actual ending when Cobb gets home, I thought the top was already spinning when he first saw it. It was at this time that the top started to wobble. It was only after we saw the faces of Cobb's kids that we saw the top again, spinning as perfectly as perfect can be.

I think Dumbo would have been a perfect reference point for this flick, with all the "Pink Elephants". Maybe they didn't have laser eyes but they felt very good by rubbing lightning on their butts.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=944cPciN-kw[/youtube]

Sarah and I never thought once of The Matrix while watching the film. I certainly thought of Shutter Island though and wondered why the films were so superficially similar.

The best idea I've heard from anybody is Sarah's about the ending. Look, we went through the ringer with Cobb, but the movie is more about the viewer's [viewee's/dreamer's] experience than some other "unenlightened" interpreter.
 
Happy to see positive reviews here for Inception. I hope to check it out this week. Someone please enlighten me some more.
 
ok, I'll come back on those points. Agreed Fischer is a high powered person, but do all high powered people have to be depicted as having a subconscious that's so defensive? Think about dreams, sometimes you know you're having a dream but you're still not in control. The big budget of the film gave some great fx I'm not denying I did enjoy those, but there could've been some more devious psychological dream invasion that could've used fx just as brilliant.

ok re Cobbs 50 year world, a little sad to see you could've built anothing you wanted and you end up building a high rise city of concrete and glass. So this could've been just a part of their world, but there could've been some amazing scenarios in this section.

Anyway, I'm not even saying I didn't like the film, it's just for me it didn't soar like I imagined it was going to.
 
The movie specifically states that Fischer's subconscious had been trained to defend itself against extractors like Cobb and his team.



Cobb also specifically states that he and his wife loved that type of building.
 
Well I saw Inception on Tuesday and first let me say (since I imagine I will spend more time discussing its flaws) that I did enjoy it immensely. It kept me entertained for the full time, I didn't feel it was insulting my intelligence like some blockbuster movies. It was slick, entertaining, looked pretty good and gave me something to think about. And the music was excellent, possibly the best bit about the whole film.

I have skimmed through this thread and seen that a few people have quetioned why there isn't more imagination in the dream scenarios and I'm with them. I get that the idea, sometimes, seems to be to have the subject not know they are dreaming, but as they say in the film, when you're in the dream you don't know it's a dream, you accept things that are slightly surreal, so where was that surreal dream logic, aside from the train that suddenly attacks them and the one paradox staircase? Why just giant cities full of skyscrapers and not waterfalls that go up or crystal caves or well, anything? Maybe Nolan should have spent less time watching The Matrix and more time thinking of the visual possibilities. Because it could have been spectaular.

There was all the usual the bad guys can't shoot straight and the good guys never die (or when they do, they're ok because it's just a dream). That and the nagging suspicion right from the start that you can't really trust any of what you're seeing because it may all turn out to be a dream stopped me from connecting emotionally with the characters and the story, although Cobb's desire to get home to his kids was fairly convincing, and the awfulness of the situation with Mol. [spoilers=Inception ending] That there would be a question mark at the end over whether it was all a dream was inevitable, although I think it more ambiguous than some people have given it credit for, the point is less that it all might not be real and more that Cobb thinks it might. Although I also like the theory that he is stuck in some kind of dream loop.[/spoilers]

I enjoyed the brief snippets of humour, mainly the interactions between Joseph Gordon-Levitt and Tom Hardy's characters, and the bit where Arthur gets Ariadne to kiss him, but I couldn't help the feeling that there needed to be a few more moments like this, a bit more quotable dialogue or 'woah cool' moments if this film is going to be the sort of cult film that people rewatch with affection.

A few questions which may be plot issues or may be me not fully 'getting it'... when they are attacked by Fischer's subconcious in the first level, why can't they change things, make their van bulletproof, for example? It's explained earlier on that changing things causes the subconcious to attack, but if it's attacking anyway, where's the harm? Or is it only the architcet who can change things and not when it's not her dream?

Why is Cobb's subconcious the only one that turns up and attacks them? Do the others not have subconscious secrets? Is it to do with him having been down to the bottom limbo level?

Is the bit right at the start a flashforward, to what happens later, or is everything in between a flashback to explain how they got there, or is it actually happening all over again and that's why Leo looks so confused during that scene, like he's said all those words before?

Why the only two times we see them infiltrating dreams do they end up telling the people whose dream they're in what they're doing?

If the spinnning top means it's reality, what is it doing in that scene between Cobb and the elderly Saito?

A lot of fun to discuss, anyway...
 
Glad you enjoyed it, Thursday. I'm going to be honest though, I am not going to even attempt to answer all of your questions as I really feel like I need to watch the film again in order to engage in more in depth discussions.

The top by itself doesn't just tell you whether or not you are in reality, you have to spin it to find out. If it stops spinning then it means you are in reality, if it doesn't and spins perfectly then you are dreaming.
 
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