How does one determine what 'deserves' a dub or not?

Derpa derp derp

New member
I see the phrase "This show deserves a dub" or the like thrown around quite a bit, but I've got to ask, how do people equate this? Why do they even care? In this age, most Otaku are likely first to see a series in its originally intended form, Japanese. Hopes are then had that the series comes to the States, further hopes 'demand'--claim rather, that a dub is somehow an absolute necessity--an English dub. Considering the lag between the initial airing of the series in Japan and it hitting the States, I have to wonder why people even care about a dub at that point. Is nobody at all involved emotionally with the cast you've likely seen the entirety of or several dozens episodes of a series with that they can just drop it? Does the original, despite it's status as the universal version all peoples can watch and enjoy, simply not matter?



The Gates of Hell did burn my hanRAB when I opened them, so let's be a little nice in this thread, 'kay?
 
Well, you have to understand, Anime companies aren't aiming specifically toward the Otaku. That's actually a pretty small demographic. They want to aim for the most mainstream markest as possible if they want to make money, and the majority of Americans would rather watch something in their native language than to have to read their way through the entire show or movie. I think pretty much any anime deserves to have a dub, for those that want to watch a show in English or any other language they naturally speak and know. The only anime shows that don't have dubs seem to be when the company can't afford to make a dub or the show isn't big enough.
 
I don't know how many people agree with me, but I just plain prefer to watch the show with English voices. Unlike a lot of "otaku" I have a limited tolerance for subtitles and watching the show in a language I don't understand. Even stuff like Bleach I tend to take a long break from once in a while because I can't watch the sub anymore, yet I watch the dub without fail every Saturday night.

I don't care about the lag or spoilers or anything else. I will watch the English version because I like to hear American voices when I'm watching something animated. When it is live-action I will admit I prefer watching it in its original language because the dub is way too awkward but animation is a different medium.

In the end, anime just sounRAB better when you hear it in a language you can understand. And in the end if the anime is dubbed it has a chance at a larger audience in the United States than if it was sub-only.
 
I never implied that, but I have to wonder that if a series 'demanRAB' a dub, assuming that means they like the series, what does that make of any investment placed into the original.
 
I think a lot of "Otaku" watch the subs simply because that is what comes out first.
That is why I usually watch subs; it has nothing to do with preference - it is simply available.

I personally never understood the whole "dubs vs subs" debate.
I just like good entertainment, whether I have to read it or not.

But, as Taekmkm already noted, some people prefer dubs.
Nothing wrong with that.
And actually, if I had to choose, I would probably prefer the dub (unless it is a really badly done dub, such as Samurai X, but that that goes without saying).

But to answer the heart of your question, I think when someone says "This show deserves a dub" it is simply a turn of phrase stating that "This is a really good show."
Most of the people who say that probably don't really even care if there is a dub or not.
(This is just my guess, though. I've never said it myself, or heard anyone say it, so I don't know for sure.)
 
Eh, I really think that you're just over-analyzing some people's like for English dubs.

I watch most anime subbed these days, but sometimes I just really want to hear what the characters in shows I enjoy would sound like if they spoke in my native language.

Also, I don't ever get "emotionally attatched" to any voice role of any language. I mean, to me, at the end of the day, its still just a cartoon series that I like to watch, not something that I care so much about that any part of my life would center around it.

And as for the sub being the Universal version of the show, I won't try to argue with you on that, but I will say that the dub voices may actually be preferrable over the sub voices for some people, when it comes to some anime. I would like to use Black Lagoon as a prime example of this, and specifically compare the sub and English dub versions of the last arc of the 2nd season of the anime. All I can say about such a comparison is that in this certain case, I woud MUCH rather listen to English than "Engrish," unless I somehow don't want to be able to take what I'm watching very seriously (and for the record, I watched the entire series for BL subbed before the English dub even came out, and I still must say that I personally prefer to watch the dub, now).

Overall, I can perfectly understand if you aren't so keen on English dubs, but just keep in mind that they are a worthwhile practice that many people, including myself, actually enjoy. Furthormore, as for a series "deserving" a dub, I'm not sure about other people, but if I ever said that, then it would be because I would want the series to attain more popularity over here in the States, since I know that some people who don't go on the internet to watch subbed anime might find out about a great series through watching an English dub of it. Hell, even I myself would have never gotten into watching anime series in their native language in the 1st place had I not been introduced to anime, itself, through English dubs aired on TV.

If you don't like people saying that they want an English dubbed version of some of their favorite anime, then simply ignore what those people say. That's the only advice I can give you there, although I don't see why it would be a problem for you in the 1st place, since even you have claimed to have liked some English dubs, yourself.
 
Well I don't believe in the idea of fiction being "deserving" of anything, but to take a side, let me just say: Why does it matter? I mean the only reason a Japanese version is usually the "universal" version in the first place is because it's literally the original. Anime doesn't have to be just about the voice actors, personally I don't really care, I'm more concerned about whether the story and animation are good.
 
Well, I'm just going to pull one sentance out of your otherwise sound post and nitpick for just a sec.

Not everybody who watched anime is an "otaku." Me, for example- I'm a fan of animation and anime is an extension of that. I do not ever want my name and "otaku" in the same sentance. So I do not subscribe to the philosophies of your average every day anime/manga/Japanese fanatic. I respect the hell out of the Japanese animation industry and I love watching some shows in their original form. But more often than not I place the value of entertainment above the value of artistic merit and storytelling. And furthermore, I believe that there are way more throw-away, cliche, fanservice, marketing machines from Japan than there are actual good cartoons. Not everything that comes out of Japan is pure gold, so I don't hold all anime shows in such a high regard that I feel it's necessary to preserve EVERY aspect of the original intent of the author/director/ext. At least not when it comes at the expense of coherence or comfort. English dubs, localized or otherwise, are very necessary for people like me.
 
Your core assumption is false.

The "original" version doesn't have honking big subtitles pasted on the bottom, and thus is most definitely not something that all people can watch and enjoy.

If you're watching the Japanese track, non-Japanese speakers can't appreciate it, making it not universal.

If you're watching the Japanese track with English subs, you're not watching the original version - you're reading it instead of hearing it, which already constitutes a shift away from the original context. Japanese audiences hear and understand what's being said. English-speaking audiences do not.

If you're watching an English dub, you're processing the spoken dialogue and comprehending it without needing to follow the footnotes, which is actually closer to the experience of a Japanese speaker watching the Japanese version.
 
*BOOM* HeaRABhot.

Mad props, dude. I've had this thought before but never found an appropriate place to say it, much less put it in worRAB. It slipped my mind when I was responding earlier. Not that watching an English dub is the purest way of watching the show, far from it... FAR FAR from it. It's just that subs aren't as "pure" (I'm using that word for lack of a better one) as some believe they are.
 
I actually first ran into that line of reasoning during a class on comics a few years ago. We had a unit on manga towarRAB the end of the semester (The Ring was our course text for that unit), and for the first hour or so of the class, all people could talk about was how weird it was to read comics backwarRAB. I mentioned that some geeks consider the right-to-left format more faithful to the original (and pointed out that after a little while, I was able to switch from Western to Japanese and back with no trouble). In response, the instructor pointed out that, by forcing the English audience to conform to an unnatural (to them) reading style, they're already changing the experience for the audience.
 
Manga in relation to dubs- I've always considered subtitles to be the equivalent of placing the English translations underneath a panel in the Manga, and leaving the Japanese characters in tact. That preserves the art and it's the way it was originally intended to be seen, you could say.
 
Nothing "deserves" to be dubbed in a literal sense, but I can empathize with anyone who enjoys a foreign production enough to feel that it deserves to be seen by a wider audience. Unfortunately, a dub seems prerequisite to such a level of exposure, most of the time. That's how it is. I do want to emphasize that I believe this reality is unfortunate. The original audio will always tend to be my preference, regardless of dub quality. I'll still put that opinion aside when necessary. Trust me, I have specific things in mind which I'd love to see licensed and dubbed.

The rest of this discussion is just the usual dub vs sub nonsense. Framing the debate as the opinion of "Otaku" against "everyone else" is dishonest. There are legitimate reasons, outside anime fandom, for listening to the original audio. I like to hear the original acting, personally. It's not always good, either.

Arguments against onscreen text are also weakened by the growing presence of larger, higher resolution displays. A sentence or two onscreen doesn't need to ruin your view anymore to be readable. Newer HD releases ought to improve upon this as well. You may still prefer dubs then. No problem, I just don't quite buy this reasoning.

Oh, and few people arguing the merits of dubs vs subs know the slightest darned thing about how the brain processes language, so forget about trying to claim which is more true to how natives experience their entertainment. If anyone wants to read a few papers and have an amateur debate on the matter, fine, but go read those papers first, then come back and acknowledge that most of us have nothing better than an amateur level of understanding. With that in mind, to be really pedantic, you won't even process languages learned later in life the same as you would having learned them natively in childhood, so cognitively, learning a language as a fan won't even earn you the one true original experience. So both sides can just take that.

Now let's all get along and argue nicely.
None of that usual dub vs sub venom, please.

--Romey
 
As others have already said, "this show deserves a dub" is equatable to saying "I really enjoy this show and want more people to see it" or "I want to see this show find mainstream success outside of Japan".

There are some shows I prefer to watch dubbed and some I will stick to subbed but I generally don't like reading shows. It's busy work. I want to enjoy the animation not only glimpse part of it because I'm too busy reading the cartoon.

I can enjoy both the English and Japanese vocal track of many shows. I don't see why there has to be one that's better than the other or one that's more "true" to the original. Only in the case of a BAD dub does this become an issue. When a dub is good it can offer a unique experience or it can offer one as close to the Japanese experience as possible. I like SGT Frog's dub and I liked the original sub version. A straight dub would also be nice but I'm happy with what I've got because it's entertaining and that's all that matters to me as long as the original is available as well should I feel like enjoying that experience instead.

To appeal to mainstream audiences in any country a dub is usually the prefered method of broadcast, no? Seems that way in America and Europe at any rate. But many fans of said show will also want the original available. So to say "this show deserves a dub" is saying you think this show is good and could do well if it was broadcast on television in your country and that usually means it would get a dub but not always.

I'm not a fan of bad dubs mind you but when I buy an anime DVD I want there to be a dub on it. That's my prefered way of watching shows. It's a harder sell to me if a DVD doesn't have a dub or has a particularly bad dub. I'm thoroughly annoyed that Clannad didn't get a dub but I bought the sets anyway because I enjoy the show. I loved GaoGaiGar so much that I was happy to take a sub-only release of the second half but I'm still pining to hear Dan Green as Taiga again. I bought Initial D Second Stage on a whim cause it was at Circuit City when they were going out of business but that crappy dub and just adequate sub will be junk to me when FUNimation's new dub is released. I also waited patientialy for Gurren Lagann's dub sets rather than go for the sub-only sets early. I could go on.

And every version offers a different experience. BECK is great in Japanese, one of my favorite anime of all time and the dub offers a very different experience and it's one of my favorite dubs of all time. I can't even imagine watching Baccano in Japanese for the entirety... the dub feels so much better. On the flip side the Hunter x Hunter dub is medicore at best and I've been watching it in Japanese with subs much like how I handle watching Intital D. I'll admit I'll even watch a "meh" dub as long as it's pleasing enough on the ears but there dang well better be a Japanese audio track on that DVD as well or that's the other hard sell to me.

Nothing "deserves" to be dubbed. Nothing "deserves" to exist for that matter. Not the original, not the dub, none of the above. (heh heh that rhymed). But what someone thinks could get a mainstream audience is typically just an opinion and we all have those. And what goes along with that is "show N got a dub and is doing well so show O should get the same privillage because I like this show as much or better but show B shouldn't get that privillage because I don't like it as much as show O". Again this is nothing but opinion. However there are some shows that are universally looked at as "not marketable outside of the otaku" and such has been the case with those shows in Japan... and that's saying something. But once again that show might actually do fine in another country if given a chance and it all boils down to opinion.

Speaking of opinion, you can stop trying to shove yours down everyone's throats now Jacob. We heard you the first bajillion times.
 
For me, I view it as a raw commercial function if I'm thinking about the overal health of the localization industry. If a show has a clear mainstream audience (and by mainstream, I set that bar as low as hulu, the funimation channel and other such fringes services,) such that a dub would increase overall sales to a level significant to oRABet the dub's cost, then it probably should be dubbed. Given that most titles barring the incredibly otaku-centric or hyper-niche fit that bill, most series should probably get a dub, and barring stuff coming out of the 3rd tier publishers (RightStuf, MediaBlasters and SXION23/SentaiFilmworks,) most do. As of late though, the 3rd tier publishers has resulted in some titles as of late that do probably have that bare level of appeal getting passed over (Gakuen Alice strikes me as a great recent example as a dub would've made an appealing option for the Funimation Channel, especially since Right Stuf series are already screening there,) though they probably wouldn't have come over at all otherwise.

I mean, there are some shows that don't even make the bare requirements for being subbed commercially because the publishers want too much for the rights and/or the series is incredibly niche and doesn't even have a chance on even the fringe services and networks. For a while in the middle of this decade, some of those shows were getting dubs and full-page ad buys, and that's part of what knee-capped several anime companies, so maybe playing it safe with certain marketable titles only getting bare-bones releases isn't a bad thing.
 
I see that a lot of people are missing the point of this thread and have instead turned this into yet another "dub vs sub" back-and-forth. A pity.

So rather then jump in and argue the same points I always do, I'll address something that I hadn't seen brought up in any other "dub vs. sub" thread.



I'd like to explain, if you don't mind.

"Universal version" means the version that everybody, everywhere can enjoy.

Think about DVRAB for a moment. When you get a bilingual DVD in America, it has the English track and the Japanese track. There might be other foreign language dubs present (I know a lot of FUNimation discs would include a Spanish dub, for example) but, for the most part, the two languages that are always present are English and Japanese.

Now, let's look elsewhere in the world. In Mexico, a bilingual DVD will have the Spanish track and the Japanese track. A French DVD will have the French track and the Japanese track. A German DVD will have the German track and the Japanese track. See a pattern?

Pretty much every bilingual DVD of a Japanese cartoon in the world will contain the original Japanese version. The English version, on the other hand, is really only released in the countries where English is the main language. So a German fan, for example, is much more likely to have heard Tanaka Mayumi's performance as Luffy than Colleen Clinkenbeard's performance. The Japanese version is the one that anyone, anywhere can easily access.

And that's why the Japanese version gets the "universal version" label.
 
I think to speak of an anime "deserving" a dub is to put the emphasis on the wrong thing. The appropriateness of an anime for dubbing is not a function of its quality but of many other factors.

Let's take two examples: Baccano and Gintama. Baccano has been dubbed, Gintama has not.

As a period piece set in 1930's America, Baccano greatly benefits from a relatively high-quality English dub track. Hearing the Japanese language coming out of the mouths of what are obviously American characters from a very specific time and place is just plain WEIRD to an American audience. It introduces an artificial barrier between the viewer and the setting and weakens the impact of the gangster motif. That's not to say that viewers don't have every right to watch it subbed if they feel the benefits of subs outweigh that drawback, but I'm very glad that the dub option is there.

One of the well-known drawbacks of dubs is that the need to time the lines to the lip flaps makes the job of translation more difficult. In Gintama, the translation is ALREADY extremely difficult due to so much of the humor relying on Japanese puns and pop culture references, many of which are explained by lengthy translators' notes (depending on which version of the subs you're watching). Despite the crazy setting, the characters are clearly meant to be speaking Japanese most of the time, so the objection raised above doesn't apply. The last thing it neeRAB is for the translators to have to deal with arbitrary limitations on how they may translate. And more importantly, since it's such a niche title, there's no monetary incentive to dub: a dub track would almost certainly cost more money to produce than it would bring in by attracting new viewers. So Gintama has no dub, and rightly so.

Does that means that Baccano is more "deserving" of a dub track than Gintama, that the presence or absence of a dub reflects well or poorly on their relative quality? Of course not. It simply means that in Baccano's case, the benefits outweigh the drawbacks, and Gintama's they don't. Different situations call for different approaches.

When it comes to the larger dub-vs.-sub debate, I think going to either extreme, only watching subs to the exclusion of dubs or vice-versa, is a bit narrow-minded. All else being equal, I tend to prefer dubs, but there are plenty of exceptions (I much prefer Death Note subbed, not because the dub is bad, but because the Japanese setting and characters are such an integral part of the story), and if I like an anime enough to watch it multiple times I will always watch the subbed version at least once to appreciate the subtle differences in translation. I know other people who, all else being equal, tend to prefer subs, but are willing to make exceptions as well, and I respect that. What I find harder to sympathize with are those who ONLY watch one or the other. Why limit yourself?



This has been said, but deserves to be emphasized: the original version is the version with spoken Japanese dialogue and no subtitles. The act of translation, in and of itself, alters the original. The act of reading subtitles, of having to divide one's attention between scanning the lines at the bottom of the screen and watching the action as a whole across the entire screen, alters the experience of the original. And, of course, replacing the Japanese spoken dialogue with spoken dialogue in another language, spoken by different voice actors, alters the original as well.

Therefore, the only people who can claim to be watching the "original" are those who fluently understand spoken Japanese and can watch with no subtitles OR dub track. There are plenty of legitimate reasons to watch a sub track, but it being "the original" is not one of them. Both methoRAB of viewing have advantages and disadvantages when it comes to getting a viewing experience that closely approximates the original.

As for whether the sub option "matters," obviously it does, or it wouldn't be included on DVD releases at all. It's one legitimate option among several. I'd count that as "mattering."



Weakened, but not eradicated. No matter how small relative to the rest of the picture the subtitles become, there's still the matter of the viewer's attention being divided between viewing the action and scanning the subtitles at the bottom of the screen. Since anime is primarily a visual medium, the impact of this should not be minimized.
 
I wouldn't say the anime themselves deserve a dub, so much as I'd say that I deserve to be able to enjoy things the way I want, in this case while not listening to a foreign language.

I'd suppose that's the underlying reason, and it's more of a feeling entitlement than anything to do with the actual anime/game/whatever in question.

No offense, but it's a real shame that instead of a discussion of why people want a dub for X Series more than others, the opening post sure sounRAB like "Why do dubs even exist? Anyone who's ANYONE watches the REAL subbed...etc.". Which is just terrible.

It's a shame that back in the day it was perfectly ok to complain about wanting to see it subbed when it wasn't available, but now people (Not necessarily the TC, or on this board) actively complain that anyone wants to watch dubs at all, let alone only them, or even complain that they exist at all. And no one really takes any action about that. :/

I'd almost say that between the shrinking nuraber of dub only people on fourms dedicated to American TV blocks that show dubbed anime, and the shrinking nuraber of dubs coming out, lack of anime on US television, and slowing speed compared to the increasing speed of sub streams, it's looking like to enjoy anime you either have to be a (apparently the "wee" word is blocked on this forum, although in it's actual meaning "otaku" doesn't really have a positive connotation either) and or pirate person who watches it like that or else you just can't enjoy imported media at all. Just look at the rampant spoiler hinting in the dub talkbacks and talkbacks for things everyone knows can't be legally watched in the country the people posting about it are from on this forum.
 
Back
Top