ilovepointe
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Because of the sparkles.
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Has Gundam SEED aged well? SPOILERS
- Thread starter Question Master
- Start date
Tenshi_No_Shikatsu
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Oh now that just be ridiculous and petty.
It hasn't gone away, though. Just last week the news in the US covered a new law that went into effect here that prohibits companies from discriminating against people because of their genetics. While the issue has gone to the back burner the last five years or so, it hasn't really gone away. As to climate change and new fuels being more relevant, I don't see them any more or less relevant than Genetics. The current relevant thing going on is the World recession/depression and war and both SEED and 00 cover the war aspect, while the World economic issue isn't touched on all that much in either show (and I'm not sure I want to see a Gundam AU that is "Gundam, the Economic Universe" anyway )
As to Destiny, you hit one of the big things that did irk me about it. I often wonder if Fukuda and his wife either had someone holding them back during SEED that wasn't with them on Destiny because the reasonably even handed look at both sides very much was missing. Instead we get a show that was clearly meant to be a political thesis on the evils of capitalism and the West and how Marxist/communist style single rule government was the way things should be, aimed at the viewers in Japan in a attempt to sway them to their outlook. Which is why I think things did melt down at the end. IMO, what Fukuda and his wife were going for with Destiny was that Durindil is the good guy and the Destiny was suppose to show people the foolishness of the Orb/Archangel crew/Kira & Lacus's position on things (Fukuda and his wife were fairly open in interviews as mentioning they held marxist views in interviews and I think Destiny makes if fairly clear their dislike of capitalism and the West in general). I think Destiny was a attempt to turn the entire SEED story on its head and do something new and daring in their eyes. The problems with what they were trying were first, the Japanese viewership not only rejected/didn't get what they were going for but demanded that Orb/Archangel crew/Kira & Lacus's be returned as the main emphasis of the show. Rightly so IMO because this was suppose to be a sequel to SEED, not a turned on its head re-telling of the story. Second, they didn't do a good job of telling the story, period. They barely wrote beneath the Ham Fisted level and drained SEED of its depth to push their agenda.
Third, not all the writers, and I have a feeling most of the rest of the staff, signed on to do this take on the story (I have to wonder if they explained any of this to anyone or just figured they'd slip it under TPTB at Sunrise and the TV network instead). Unfortunately for the viewers those in charge over Fukuda didn't figure out what Fukuda et al were up to until about twenty episodes into the show. Even then, IMO they didn't figure it all out until around fifteen episodes from the end. At which point they seem to have stepped in and tried to re-adjust things drastically which lead to the wackiness because Fukuda was still in charge to a point and everyone was fighting with each other. [And still, Fukuda may have had the last laugh with the Lacus looking like the Emperor from Star Wars stuff at the very end of Destiny because why do that if you don't think Lacus is the bad guy? (then again, why turn a character you made out to be the good guy in the first place at all? I really do wonder at times about the sanity level of the Fukuda's during the making of Destiny ).]
So that takes us to the here and now. We have two Gundam universes in the last ten years and I'm not sure either is truly better than the other. What they are is different from each other and wildly different at that. I think unlike Gundam Wing and Turn A Gundam these show both have potential to do more in their universes (those two might as well, but I'm sticking to the 2000s). Destiny was a mess but IMO it wasn't a mess to the point it ended everything. Heck, I don't even think you'd have to toss Destiny out - they left things at a point they could tweak themselves out of it, san the issue of the "people who died that probably should have stayed dead" issue which is more of a personal taste situation as I see it (personally the fact you can't keep Tiera and Co (I'm blanking on their group name at the moment) from 00 any more dead than Mu, Kira, and Andy just as silly). They just need to replace Fukuda IMO and then try and get back to the more even handed storytelling used in SEED (bring back a deeper plot verse a agenda). I want to see more SEED, you and others want to see more 00 but at this point we're getting more UC universe instead. At this point I'm not sure the biggest obstacle to getting more CE or AD Gundams is economics verse lack of potential new material. I think both shows have a audience in Japan, along with the original UC, but finding the funding to do them is going to be the trick (currently the universe with the biggest economic pull is UC because its fans are in their 40s and have still have buying potential verse Japanese twenty somethings who are often struggling to survive these days).
As to Destiny, you hit one of the big things that did irk me about it. I often wonder if Fukuda and his wife either had someone holding them back during SEED that wasn't with them on Destiny because the reasonably even handed look at both sides very much was missing. Instead we get a show that was clearly meant to be a political thesis on the evils of capitalism and the West and how Marxist/communist style single rule government was the way things should be, aimed at the viewers in Japan in a attempt to sway them to their outlook. Which is why I think things did melt down at the end. IMO, what Fukuda and his wife were going for with Destiny was that Durindil is the good guy and the Destiny was suppose to show people the foolishness of the Orb/Archangel crew/Kira & Lacus's position on things (Fukuda and his wife were fairly open in interviews as mentioning they held marxist views in interviews and I think Destiny makes if fairly clear their dislike of capitalism and the West in general). I think Destiny was a attempt to turn the entire SEED story on its head and do something new and daring in their eyes. The problems with what they were trying were first, the Japanese viewership not only rejected/didn't get what they were going for but demanded that Orb/Archangel crew/Kira & Lacus's be returned as the main emphasis of the show. Rightly so IMO because this was suppose to be a sequel to SEED, not a turned on its head re-telling of the story. Second, they didn't do a good job of telling the story, period. They barely wrote beneath the Ham Fisted level and drained SEED of its depth to push their agenda.
Third, not all the writers, and I have a feeling most of the rest of the staff, signed on to do this take on the story (I have to wonder if they explained any of this to anyone or just figured they'd slip it under TPTB at Sunrise and the TV network instead). Unfortunately for the viewers those in charge over Fukuda didn't figure out what Fukuda et al were up to until about twenty episodes into the show. Even then, IMO they didn't figure it all out until around fifteen episodes from the end. At which point they seem to have stepped in and tried to re-adjust things drastically which lead to the wackiness because Fukuda was still in charge to a point and everyone was fighting with each other. [And still, Fukuda may have had the last laugh with the Lacus looking like the Emperor from Star Wars stuff at the very end of Destiny because why do that if you don't think Lacus is the bad guy? (then again, why turn a character you made out to be the good guy in the first place at all? I really do wonder at times about the sanity level of the Fukuda's during the making of Destiny ).]
So that takes us to the here and now. We have two Gundam universes in the last ten years and I'm not sure either is truly better than the other. What they are is different from each other and wildly different at that. I think unlike Gundam Wing and Turn A Gundam these show both have potential to do more in their universes (those two might as well, but I'm sticking to the 2000s). Destiny was a mess but IMO it wasn't a mess to the point it ended everything. Heck, I don't even think you'd have to toss Destiny out - they left things at a point they could tweak themselves out of it, san the issue of the "people who died that probably should have stayed dead" issue which is more of a personal taste situation as I see it (personally the fact you can't keep Tiera and Co (I'm blanking on their group name at the moment) from 00 any more dead than Mu, Kira, and Andy just as silly). They just need to replace Fukuda IMO and then try and get back to the more even handed storytelling used in SEED (bring back a deeper plot verse a agenda). I want to see more SEED, you and others want to see more 00 but at this point we're getting more UC universe instead. At this point I'm not sure the biggest obstacle to getting more CE or AD Gundams is economics verse lack of potential new material. I think both shows have a audience in Japan, along with the original UC, but finding the funding to do them is going to be the trick (currently the universe with the biggest economic pull is UC because its fans are in their 40s and have still have buying potential verse Japanese twenty somethings who are often struggling to survive these days).
Char lost his parents to a dictator-ship family which he killed, followed by 15 years of seeing the worst in people (Titans, Haman).
There's a whole backstory on Ribbons involving abuse of being made by Aeolia in the other thread.
More importantly, they were built up to be the villains with 3 shows and a season respectively.
Azie boy shows up in the late 30's going "lulz, I'm evil. My name's blue, and I wear a blue suit. Zing!"
That's my main problem with the SEED villains. They're either completely random (Durandal) or too one-dimensional (Jibril, Rau, Azie). Patrick Zala was the only decent one of the bunch. That's not including the useless Druggies (especially the second trio. Jeez, Stella alone was irritating) and the ever increasing comedic Federation.
There's a whole backstory on Ribbons involving abuse of being made by Aeolia in the other thread.
More importantly, they were built up to be the villains with 3 shows and a season respectively.
Azie boy shows up in the late 30's going "lulz, I'm evil. My name's blue, and I wear a blue suit. Zing!"
That's my main problem with the SEED villains. They're either completely random (Durandal) or too one-dimensional (Jibril, Rau, Azie). Patrick Zala was the only decent one of the bunch. That's not including the useless Druggies (especially the second trio. Jeez, Stella alone was irritating) and the ever increasing comedic Federation.
I <3 EDWARD CULLEN
New member
The vast majority of Gundam villains have always been two-dimensional evil fascist bastarRAB who's motive is ''I am the superior being, so I deserve to rule earth and space!'' like the Zabi Family, 90% of everyone in the Titans, Carozzo Ronah, Colonel Ulube, Dekim Barton, the Frost Brothers etc. Why should the Seed villains be any different?
The only real three-dimensional antagonists in Gundam have been Zechs, Treize, Master Aisa, Raraba Ral, Norris Packard and every antagonist in the first season of Gundam 00 whose names were not Ali Al-Saachez, Alejandro Corner, Ribbons Almark or the Trinities.
The only real three-dimensional antagonists in Gundam have been Zechs, Treize, Master Aisa, Raraba Ral, Norris Packard and every antagonist in the first season of Gundam 00 whose names were not Ali Al-Saachez, Alejandro Corner, Ribbons Almark or the Trinities.
I think the whole "Freedom is invincible!" thing started based on its first appearence, where it wiped out all the ZAFT soldiers effortlessly. Kinda like how Trunks in DBZ is said by fans to be a great fighter, except that the only fights he wins are against opponets he's 30x more powerful against (Freeza, Cold, and 1st-stage Cell) and his first appearence was so wicked awesome that that image never left people's minRAB.
Later on in SEED, Freedom did have a lot of trouble thanks to Calamity, Raider, and Forbidden. If you remeraber, during the big battle at the Mendel Colony, Freedom got heavily damaged, including half its head being destroyed. The three Druggies were almost as strong as Freedom was, which makes Calamity and Forbidden's defeat by Yzak (Yes, Yzak, NOT Dearka) in the outdated-before-its-introduction Duel all the more humiliating.
Later on in SEED, Freedom did have a lot of trouble thanks to Calamity, Raider, and Forbidden. If you remeraber, during the big battle at the Mendel Colony, Freedom got heavily damaged, including half its head being destroyed. The three Druggies were almost as strong as Freedom was, which makes Calamity and Forbidden's defeat by Yzak (Yes, Yzak, NOT Dearka) in the outdated-before-its-introduction Duel all the more humiliating.
infraredcentipede
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The popstar angle only works if she stays a popstar, not Super Rebel Force Illluminati Money Bags.
It's like Minmei suddenly funding her own SDF-Macross in the final quarter of the show.
It's like Minmei suddenly funding her own SDF-Macross in the final quarter of the show.
The Jabbawock
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Sergei Smirnov ftw!
Seriously though, it's very difficult to write an actually villainous character who is at once profound, well developed, not insane AND clearly evil. The reason for this is of course, most people are in fact quite moral beings, there's just a bit of an ongoing debate as to what constitutes correct morals from incorrect ones. Where those moral ideals overlap, you get conflict, but it's very rarely because of any kind of objective evil.
And while this may all be complettely true, it very rarely makes for a good story, even less so if the primary focus is going to be on giant robots blasting the ever loving piss out of each other with tons of ordanance and gigajewels of particle cannon fire, so it's hardly surprising that the Gundam verse in general tenRAB to glaze over the deeper motivations of the big baddies of the series and just paints them with the tar of 'evil villain'. It's just too damn much work to fully develope everybody and it doesn't make for a good story anyway. Eventually you just have to say 'You know what, F-it, he's a villain, that's all you need to know'.
Now, all that being said, what Seed tenRAB to lack in any great supply are the well intentioned but never the less diametrically opposed to the hero antagonists that Gundam is so fond of, and there are rather a lot MORE of the 1 dimensional crazy evil for no brilliantly explained or particularilly intresting reason.. Villains.
Wow, I do go on don't I? Meh, F-it.
Seriously though, it's very difficult to write an actually villainous character who is at once profound, well developed, not insane AND clearly evil. The reason for this is of course, most people are in fact quite moral beings, there's just a bit of an ongoing debate as to what constitutes correct morals from incorrect ones. Where those moral ideals overlap, you get conflict, but it's very rarely because of any kind of objective evil.
And while this may all be complettely true, it very rarely makes for a good story, even less so if the primary focus is going to be on giant robots blasting the ever loving piss out of each other with tons of ordanance and gigajewels of particle cannon fire, so it's hardly surprising that the Gundam verse in general tenRAB to glaze over the deeper motivations of the big baddies of the series and just paints them with the tar of 'evil villain'. It's just too damn much work to fully develope everybody and it doesn't make for a good story anyway. Eventually you just have to say 'You know what, F-it, he's a villain, that's all you need to know'.
Now, all that being said, what Seed tenRAB to lack in any great supply are the well intentioned but never the less diametrically opposed to the hero antagonists that Gundam is so fond of, and there are rather a lot MORE of the 1 dimensional crazy evil for no brilliantly explained or particularilly intresting reason.. Villains.
Wow, I do go on don't I? Meh, F-it.
♥ J a i m i e ♥
New member
That makes it even worse in retrospect.
I say, it's aged about as well as Terrahawks. Meaning the original creator probably wishes he could forget about the show.
I say, it's aged about as well as Terrahawks. Meaning the original creator probably wishes he could forget about the show.
karregaard
New member
The Zabi all have their own ideals and personality. Degwin, for example, heavily opposed Gihren's total domination plan (which killed him), and Kycillia against the cold-blooded attitude of his brother (which she killed him for.) Garma was actually a pretty decent guy, it's just he was born a Zabi. To the point, it was an interesting struggle of backstabbing that ultimately led to the Zeon's defeat. (Well, and Char killing them.)
I'm not going to comment on the Wing villains. For the most part, they're just angry old men telling Relena to shut up. And Dekim's worse, being both random out of nowhere and one-dimensional in a 3 OVA stunt.
The Frost Brothers have a very detailed background on how the term Newtype has shunned them, when the plot is wrapped around such beings that it makes perfect sense for them to be the ultimate villain. Plus, they were built up from the start.
SEED, only counting SEED right now, have villains either coming too late, or are just evil for the sake of being evil. It also doesn't know how to handle multiple factions well, putting the Federation into generic a-holes and PLANT basically being Yzak and the Zala conflict. You don't spend enough time with these villains to actually feel conflicted. Okay, about as conflicted as a monster-of-the-week in a super robot show.
I'm not going to comment on the Wing villains. For the most part, they're just angry old men telling Relena to shut up. And Dekim's worse, being both random out of nowhere and one-dimensional in a 3 OVA stunt.
The Frost Brothers have a very detailed background on how the term Newtype has shunned them, when the plot is wrapped around such beings that it makes perfect sense for them to be the ultimate villain. Plus, they were built up from the start.
SEED, only counting SEED right now, have villains either coming too late, or are just evil for the sake of being evil. It also doesn't know how to handle multiple factions well, putting the Federation into generic a-holes and PLANT basically being Yzak and the Zala conflict. You don't spend enough time with these villains to actually feel conflicted. Okay, about as conflicted as a monster-of-the-week in a super robot show.
Just Michellee ...
New member
What about Rau? He had in my opinion, a really great and orginal motivation for being a villain- he's a defective clone who never asked to be created and is dying a slow painful death which causing him to go insane and made him bitter and nilhilistic. Add the fact that he lives in a world where people mindless hate and kill each other, so you kind of understand his "All humans are bastarRAB who should die" plan.
| thE-paK araB roCker|
New member
I would posit that the SF has aged well, and the story has aged...relatively well. I'm not necessarily arguing that it's top tier, but for what it is it works. The characters are very much a mixed bag, and the animation has aged and will age fairly badly as a leading example of what digital animation was like for anime back when it was walking baby steps. Really, look at it today and it just isn't that good in comparison. Turn A probably looks better than it does. In terms of animation and attractiveness, for this decade Geass and GL and Gundam 00 run circles around it all day long. Seed had some excellent scenes but it could look stilted sometimes.
I thought the starting premise was a smart stroke. The natural/coordinator divide was no less valid than the classic estrangement between the Federation and Zeon in my book.
The problem with Destiny's story is that it basically turned into a sermon against revenge and for the importance of using power responsibly, but it mostly forgot about the big issues that Seed brought up. In a different context Durandal's Destiny Plan would have been interesting, but all things considered we'd all have been happier if they had advanced on all of Seed's smaller plot points while telling another fairly straightforward war story.
I could say so much more about a lot of comments, but I'm busy. Just wanted to quickly stop in for now.
I thought the starting premise was a smart stroke. The natural/coordinator divide was no less valid than the classic estrangement between the Federation and Zeon in my book.
The problem with Destiny's story is that it basically turned into a sermon against revenge and for the importance of using power responsibly, but it mostly forgot about the big issues that Seed brought up. In a different context Durandal's Destiny Plan would have been interesting, but all things considered we'd all have been happier if they had advanced on all of Seed's smaller plot points while telling another fairly straightforward war story.
I could say so much more about a lot of comments, but I'm busy. Just wanted to quickly stop in for now.
Vanilla Smells Good
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I can't blame you. I don't think either of these shows has had enough time to even be having a "has it aged well" discussion to begin with.
BTW, last night after my first post I got to thinking about SEED and Macross and since someone brought up Macross I thought I'd muse for a second on it. There are times I think SEERAB biggest "sin" is that it really is more a Macross show set in the Gundam multiverse than it being a inherently bad show (keeping Destiny out of it because, well, I think even those who like CE can blow holes into that show). I'd love to discuss that thought.
As to animation quality, SEED is as good as 00, Geass and Gurran Lagaan IMO. That's not to say SEED is great but to say that the other three aren't really any better or worse. For the most part the animation of all of the top shows of the 2000s are really at the same level if the show was made for TV. When it comes to 00 and Geass they are the exact same studio that made SEED and I don't feel there really has been some great leap in animation quality or style in the last five years over at Sunrise. Gurran Lagaan, on the other hand, has good animation but also comes off retro (intentionally, IMO). The art style in that is very different than Sunrise fair and I find it hard to use as a comparison in this case.
BTW, last night after my first post I got to thinking about SEED and Macross and since someone brought up Macross I thought I'd muse for a second on it. There are times I think SEERAB biggest "sin" is that it really is more a Macross show set in the Gundam multiverse than it being a inherently bad show (keeping Destiny out of it because, well, I think even those who like CE can blow holes into that show). I'd love to discuss that thought.
As to animation quality, SEED is as good as 00, Geass and Gurran Lagaan IMO. That's not to say SEED is great but to say that the other three aren't really any better or worse. For the most part the animation of all of the top shows of the 2000s are really at the same level if the show was made for TV. When it comes to 00 and Geass they are the exact same studio that made SEED and I don't feel there really has been some great leap in animation quality or style in the last five years over at Sunrise. Gurran Lagaan, on the other hand, has good animation but also comes off retro (intentionally, IMO). The art style in that is very different than Sunrise fair and I find it hard to use as a comparison in this case.
Mary Mando
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Rau has what I call "Bask syndrome." He appears in the first few episodes but then totally disappears for the next 20 or so like the writer forgot him, then jam all this backstory in the span of a couple episodes.
On paper, he seems decent but the execution was bad. He ended more Ali Sanchez than Char Azanable.
Also, apparently he played chess with Durandal. The hell?
On paper, he seems decent but the execution was bad. He ended more Ali Sanchez than Char Azanable.
Also, apparently he played chess with Durandal. The hell?
Rau's underlying plot was still in effect during the early episodes, it just wasn't out in the open like in the second half of the show. I mean, throughout the beginning of the show he's prodding everyone he meets into killing their enemies. Operation SpitBreak wouldn't have happened so fast if Rau didn't nudge Patrick in that direction.
The biggest strike that SEED has is having Hirai as the character designer. And this was way before he got eventually decent like Heroic Age.
The second biggest strike for animation is that SEED really was
"archaic" in comparison to the future Sunrise shows. Geass, you have to remeraber, was the second "b" anime when it first came out while Sunrise was pushing Idolmaster in a better timeslot, yet the animation flow better. Even compared to an old show like GaoGaiGar or its 2000's update FINAL looks better. Maybe there's not that much difference in screenshots, but the execution of the episodes are just stiff.
Heck, even Fukuda's old mecha show Gear Fighter Dendoh was more fluid. It was definitely a "learning" experience for the studio to mess with so much cg.
The second biggest strike for animation is that SEED really was
"archaic" in comparison to the future Sunrise shows. Geass, you have to remeraber, was the second "b" anime when it first came out while Sunrise was pushing Idolmaster in a better timeslot, yet the animation flow better. Even compared to an old show like GaoGaiGar or its 2000's update FINAL looks better. Maybe there's not that much difference in screenshots, but the execution of the episodes are just stiff.
Heck, even Fukuda's old mecha show Gear Fighter Dendoh was more fluid. It was definitely a "learning" experience for the studio to mess with so much cg.
Oh yes, I just realized something after work today in regarRAB to this thread. I found out what will, out of ALL the facets of SEED, be the one thing that will age well.
The music. Toshihiko Sahashi's score no matter its penchant for overly orchestral, is absolutely memorable and still listenable to a great degree 6 to 7 years after its release. In fact I still prefer it at times over 00's soundtrack, despite how good that is.
The music. Toshihiko Sahashi's score no matter its penchant for overly orchestral, is absolutely memorable and still listenable to a great degree 6 to 7 years after its release. In fact I still prefer it at times over 00's soundtrack, despite how good that is.