Girls can do anything boys can... except be well-written characters.

One of the things that distressed me so much about the changes in FOP was what was done with (and to) Wanda. She was originally warm, playful and only slightly smarter than Cosmo (although both of them in the beginning weren't really mentally deficient. They were just eccentric and had some difficulty connecting to the attitudes and realities of the human, mortal world). But as we all know, she got turned into a victimized nag stereotype, and the attitudes that must have instigated that change can only be described as disturbing, in my view. It was that mistake that really brought about the downfall of the show, both in quality and popularity. I think the latter-day Wanda is a good example of a badly-written female character.

In contrast, I think two of the best female characters in toons are Raven and Starfire in Teen Titans. There were nuances in both of them that made them extremely likeable and interesting, and one of my fave episodes is the one where they switched bodies and were forced understand each other so that they could, in turn, use each other's powers. The results were both intriguing and very funny (Raven, especially, was amusing as she realized that Starfire's powers were derived from positive emotions, something Raven isn't exactly into). Raven and Starfire are the main reasons I still miss Teen Titans; I hope it gets a revival, and soon.

But the best female TV toon characters have to be Katara and Toph from Avatar. Katara started out as a bit of a Mary Sue, but the writers eventually added a dark layer (her hatred for her mother's murderer and an undeterrable desire for revenge), which made her kindness and valor shine that much more brightly in comparison, and then there's Toph, a princess whose slovenly ways and total disdain for anything girly make her a welcome change from the overachieving Mary Sues we've been discussing here. She's crude, but not so crude she's off-putting, and she's just feminine enough to develop a slight crush on Sokka. She's almost my fave character on Avatar - and I only use the word "almost" because ALL of the characters on Avatar are outstanding, and thus it's so hard to choose a favorite...
 
Avatar actually does have some awesome female characters... Toph and -surprisingly- Azula are my favorites (of what few episodes I've seen). Toph's not afraid to get her hands dirty -figuratively and literally- and she overcomes her blindness without constantly shoving it in the face of everyone else in a very PC manner like, 'Oh hey I'm a girl AND I'm blind therefore I'm better than you' like some cartoons do to an extent.

Azula's just a cold hearted witch who is genuinely scary sometimes. Quite frankly, I don't think her character would have such an impact if she was a guy, because most people who watch a cartoon NEVER expect a woman -much less a young girl- to be such a sadistic person, outside of campy villanesses in super hero cartoons, because most megalomaniac villains are just that: men. But there's more to her character ('The Beach' being a nice example), though sadly her cruelty overshadows it to the typical 'Avatar' fan.

Also, I thought Batgirl in 'The Batman' was alright. Same with Raven and Starfire too. I think to a certain extent, the DCAU -in whatever form it may be- has some of the best female characters. Someone also mentioned Eliza Maza from 'Gargoyles' (not DCAU, of course)... I like her as well, she's awesome. Teela from the most recent He-Man/MotU cartoon I think was borderline 'Miss Mary Sue', but that really depends upon the episode, otherwise I enjoyed her character more than I thought I would.

I think in all honesty, the only reason why female characters are written so poorly is because writers -male OR female- are afraid to take risks out of the fear that they'll offend someone. That's probably why female characters have remained stagnant for so many years... and that's just sad.
 
That's pretty much it.

And sadly it's a fear that I understand. People are afraid to take risks like that because then you run the risk of dealing with people you've somehow offended. I can understand why someone would want to play it safe.
 
Scary thought. It means we could be having this kind of discussion for generations....



Quoted for truth. With a balanced cast, you rarely end up with acharacters rarely feel like a Mary Sue. Kim Possible was at her best (and most well-rounded) in the episodes (and moives) where Ron was more than just the incompetant sidekick.

And this is where Avatar lost me. On the balance issue. Katara and Toph (and Azula) were strong characters. All well and good. Sokka was useless or worse, and never really grew past that. The girls started powerful and only grew moreso, while he actually grew lamer over time, to the point where a de-powered Azula was able to dance circles around him. The constant contrast was just so grating.... I woul have enjoyed the latter half of the series so much more if they had just written him out the main group.

Someone earlier mentioned Total Drama Island, and have to concur. Great use of characters all over the spectrum! 'Bout the first show where most of my favoriete characters were girls.
 
Ah, the "Men can't write women" excuse. You do realize that's a giant load of bull right? A good character is a good character - sex doesn't matter, nor does the sex of the writer behind it. If this was in any way accurate, the opposite would be true: "women can't write men".

Kagura of Gintama is a shining example. Sorachi Hideaki is a man, yet he's managed to quite successfully write a 13-14 year old girl. She's as rude and crude as her male counterparts, can more than match them in battle; but she's still a little girl, and does little girl things. In other words, Kagura ROCKS. Actualy, all of Sorachi's female characters rock... even Sa-chan in her own weird, freaky wrong way. XD

Kubo Tite is also good at portraying women - certain character designs aside, they all have substance, they all have flaws as well as strengths, and they all have their quirks.

Anyway, the problem with good female characters in kids cartoons comes down to political correctness, which has already been mentioned. You can get away with a lot of weird crap with male character's but if you try the same stunt with a female character, suddenly there's sexist subtext - no matter how innocent, or silly the gag may be. This is what ultimately drives writers to fall back on stereotypes - the stereotypes are safe.

When it comes to kids entertainment no one likes to take risks - the entire industry is constantly under a microscope because it's generaly considered the number one reason why America's youth is going to hell in a handbasket. :p Naturaly, networks are a little weary of straying too far outside the safe zone and tend to greenlight shows they know won't get them in trouble.

Which makes it all the more surprising Avatar was made AT ALL. XD TOPH FTW!!!!
 
The three exceptions to this in the DCAU were Barbara Gordon (B:TAS as Batgirl to Batman Beyond, where she eventually became the Commissioner of Gotham City), Amanda Waller (the only person in the entire DCAU who was able to bring Batman's ego down a notch TWICE without using violence), and Shayera Hol AKA "Hawkgirl" (her love life, from past, present to future is epic).
 
The only character in those examples that I'm familiar with is Stephanie Knightly, and I don't know why you felt the need to mention her when we were talking about female protagonists and Stephanie is clearly an antagonist. You're not supposed to emphasize with Stephanie. Being an overbearing brat is part of her character.

Again, in some cases you might have a point, except that many of your examples of these hated types don't really fit the category. Mrs. Slaghoople (Wilma's mother) and Patty & Selma Bouvier are supposed to be dried up, bitter, man hating hags. That's their characters. Outside of that, they would have no personalities at all. However, I fail to see how Penny and Trudy proud fall into this category. Trudy is not nearly as hard on Oscar as his own mother is. And Penny, based on what I've seen, mostly just whines and complains.

And Chi-Chi means well, she's just incredibly high strung. If you watch the series, you'll notice that she is DEEPLY in love with Goku. Her only crime is being an overprotective wife and mother. Although, Chi-Chi goes ballistic at times, I can't really fault her for it. I mean, if my spouse was always flying off for months at a time to fight some alien monster or otherworldy menace that could potentially involve a self sacrifice leaving me to raise our kids alone, I'd be a little edgy too.

I'm not offended, I'm confused. What do girls' feelings about wrestling have to do with anything? Someone is an overbearing "know-it-all" because they don't like wrestling? I don't like wrestling either, and I'm a guy! And "hate having normal lives"? What? I don't even know what that means. I think you need to explain this a little better, because, frankly, you lost me.
 
No, not at all. I don't think female characters should be weak, I'm just saying that some criteria for judging them as such is a little unfair and that certain elements have to be weighed and considered before making a judgement like "they're weak/poorly written characters".



Not to mention that upbringing causing her to believe her mother didn't love because she didn't treat her like daddy did (which, of course, wasn't love at all, as Azula finds out too late) and the warping that causes to her mind.
 
But it's anvil dropping - it's already unrealistic, and in this case, Babs is perfectly capeable of returning the favor.

Why is female slapstick not as funny? Why is it a horrible accident of a woman falls down the stairs, yet the epitome of comedy if a man does? O.o



True, but it kind of falls back on the stereotypes - if Toph and Kataara go their asses handed to them on a regular basis, people'd be complaining that the show was sexist - frankly, I'm surprised they got away with what they got away with.



While Orihime (and Matsumoto although she cracks most of the jokes herself so it doesn't count) is the butt of a number of boob jokes, it's only a side aspect to her overall personality. Ultimately, her figure doesn't matter.
 
This reminds me that one of the Larry Doyle Looney Tunes wasn't made precisely for this reason. The plot was that a supermodel was hunting Bugs to make herself a fur coat (after saving Bugs from Elmer, and she gains Bugs' trust by saying she's a member of PETA), so Bugs inflicts all kind of slapstick violence on her.

The short didn't make it past the storyboards stage, more than likely because the villain was a woman. I would have like to see it made, just out of curiosity, as the gags aren't that different of what you see in your average Looney Tune. (One of the slapstick moments was Bugs running over this woman with a lawnmower).
 
She got some nice focus with Starcrossed and the episodes after she joined back with the league, yes, though I was sort of speaking more in general terms (number of males to females, number of episodes that actually focused on her, etcetera) and trying to limit it to single series. (As in, B:TAS and S:TAS on their own terms as their own shows, which is why I only mentioned S:TAS in my opening post) though the DCAU probably isn't the best example to use as they are connected continuity-wise and can be argued one needs to look at it as a whole. Exceptions to the rule and all that, but in general, the females were definately an afterthought.

That may be, but honestly, if a character has a lot of fanservice focused on them, then it becomes rather hard to argue that they exist for much more than just some fanservice quota... especially in some of the more blatant cases out there (shower scenes, etcetera). To me, those types of scenes really take away from their character, and just show that the writers view them as no more than a simple fanservice device who's personality is no where near as importance as their physical appearance and ability to show off their body.

Well, I've yet to really see one. They always seem to stick to the same preset stereotypes with no intent other than to attempt an appeal to the girl demographic.
 
Yeah,really.Some girls really do fall into these catergories but there can still be more to them too.Stereotypes are bound to happen but there are also unique characters as well.
 
Have you ever seen the end of 'It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World'? I mean, the very, very end?

It's a classic scene with a woman (in this case, Ethel Merman) being the subject of physical comedy. It only has full impact of its humor if you manage to watch the movie all the way though (and you win an award if you do manage to sit through it too), but it's hilarious.
 
OK, Lisa Simpson is a vegetarian. I'll give you that one, but apart from that, when have Lisa, Yin, Sakura or Hayley Smith ever claimed not to like doing any of those things? Hayley has "hung out" with her friends on several occasions. So has Yin. And I've seen both of them read magazines.
 
Basically any female that's into the quote unquote "hippie, save the Earth" type of stuff is abnormal compared to others on the show for that sole reason.
 
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