Fire Lord Ozai... was he a satisfying villain for Aang's final battle?

B

BooBerry

New member
Well, Ozai was essentially the main villain of the entire show, though he doesn't really get active until the grand finale - is this a problem or no? Well, I'm honestly not sure....

Let's see... he's only in one fight in the whole series: the final showdown in which he gets his ass handed to him.. (okay it was only because he unknowingly hit Aang into a rock that suddenly by luck for the good guys suddenly unleashed all of Aang's chakra but still...) And he gets Humilation Conga... and locked in a tiny, tiny cell.. but I honestly didn't have much feeling for him, I didn't love to hate him nor did I absolutely hate him, so I didn't feel much triumph in this nor did I cheer for his downfall... I just kinda... watched.

On the other hand, he WAS a real... jerk.. (had a harsher word in mind but board censors and all) scarred and burned his own son, ignored his brother's tragedy... and well I'm sure you all know by now the things he's done.

It's funny, the funny that I loved to hate but yet couldn't wait to see get her comeuppance was his daughter, Azula.. yet.. apparently I'm not supposed to cheer her downfall. I'm supposed to suddenly feel SORRY for her now? ....yeah, that was just a little too sudden for me.

Maybe it's because he was voiced by Mark Hamill? I mean, you know, Mark Hamill is awesome and I feel they could've used him a little more since Mark Hamill usually does such an excellent job with the roles he plays (and still does). Some of Ozai's dialogue was... a little melodramatic... but Mark Hamill definiately did the best he could with it.

So to answer my own question, I'm still not sure how to feel about Ozai? Does anyone else have any other thoughts?
 
Terrible villain. Like you said, he doesn't do anything until the finale, and pretty much just sits on his throne until the hero comes to fight him, though unlike other villain archetypes of that nature we don't even see him barking orders really. He should have been active since way back in the first season, or maybe make Azula the final villain since we saw more of her, or something. It felt like the writers didn't really know what to do with him.
 
I thought Ozai worked out kind of like the Emperor in the original Star Wars trilogy. He was always the prime mover behind all the actions that happened on screen, but usually operated behind the scenes even though he was more than capable of acting directly. We don't see many of his actions directly until the very end, but that doesn't mean his pervading influence isn't felt. He was also pounding the snot out of Aang at the start of the fight in the finale. That one wasn't even close until Aang got the Avatar State back.

As for Azula, I thought her final fate was an interesting creative choice, partially because we can still hate her and feel sorry for her at the same time.

-- Ed
 
I sometimes feel that we should of seen Ozai a little bit more throughout the series, so we can fully grasp and understand his evilness. Though the fight between him and Aang was awesome, Ozai's defeat would've been more so if we seen him engage in battle in the previous seasons.

I guess the way we saw Ozai so few times is that we only saw him through the protagonists eyes (mostly Zuko). We don't feel any true attachment to him the same way Aang doesn't when he faces him.

...Or something like that.

Azula's defeat though, was awesome incarnate.
 
Azula was handled a lot better than Ozai, we saw her more often and we go to know her, but her defeat was.. ugh. Turning her into some crying mess was so rushed and out-of-left-field considering how she acted throughout season 2 and early season 3. It's like the writers needed to make her plausably lose to Katara somehow, but forgetting Katara was going toe-to-toe with her back in season 2. If they planned that form the start (if it wasn't one of the things they made up for the finale) then they should have showcased it earlier back in season 2 (where her plans often blew up her face, but she never cried or went crazy over her losses) or at least make her not so weepy in the finale and tone it down a bit.
 
I don't think she was crying because she lost to Katara, but because she went crazy after having the burden of being the newest Fire Lord and having her mother hate her (the scene were she sees Ursa in the mirror is all an illusion of Azula's mind and evidence that she's slipping.) Her defeat was just the last straw and she finally snapped, and cried and spewed fire out of her mouth.

Do we see what happens to Azula after that, I can't remember. Maybe it's just another unanswered question. :shrug: Azula's one of my favorite characters too, her background is one of the deepest. She's crazy because she *thought* her mother said she was a monster, she's just incredibly evil for no reason except to impress her father maybe and not only that, but she's controlling of her friends and that later backfired in "The Boiling Rock, Part II".

So all in all, Azula is a much better villian than her father Ozai. He was just the "main villain" we never really saw until the last episode.
 
I would say he was. Much like someone else said he was like the Emperor from Star Wars. He's the big evil but he isn't the one that you see the most. I think that works in his favor, it gives him more weight that he is this all powerful force. If we saw him barking out orders every couple episodes he becomes too mortal, too human and he starts veering into Cobra Commander/ General Greivous territory, which hurts the credibility of him and the show.

I can see why some people would think that this sort of old school big baddie type would feel underwhelming. But sometimes I think that works because it makes him seem more than just human even though he's not( well in Avatar's world he still powerful but not of Avatar capability ). That's quite the contrast to say Aang, who is supposed to be this almost demi god but he seems harmless due to his character being so young, inexperienced, and of course being the main character.
 
I diden't like Ozai. We should have just seen him fight from Book 1 instead of waiting till the Final. Azula made the final exciting, not Ozai.
 
Only if it's handled poorly. Phobos was another typical "sit on throne and scheme", but we got to saw him scheme; and his schemes were manipulative and devious. His coercion of Elyon to his side and the way he twisted his words made unfortunate siutations work in his favor was just amazing. It also made him a lot more interesting when we see him interact with the heroes since we actually do know him and what he's capable of. I don't see anything wrong with making a character human, otherwise they just stand out like a cardboard cutout and it's hard to care about them if they don't seem human or have any feelings.
 
I think that was supposed to be the point there. Building up Azula to be the part you love to hate and want to see go down only for you (and Zuko and Katara) to get no satisfaction seeing it. In for the DVD commentary for her last scene, Mike and Bryan said that wanted to avoid the typical "Hooray, the villain's defeated, all is happy!" cliche; with Azula and her mental state, things are alot more complicated than that. She's not a black-and-white character like her father (that's just what she wants everyone to think. :p )



Exactly. She thinks her mother didn't love her and thus controls and manipulates people instead of letting them get close, and also to please the only one she thinks does care for her...her father. When this worldview begins collapsing on her, we see just how messed up she's always been inside. (BTW, we never did see what happened to her afterwards, but it has since been officially confirmed that she's being cared for at a secret asylum.)



Lord, must you reference that cult show all the time when discussing other shows? :yawn: Honestly, I know and respect the fact that you really like WITCH and don't really like Avatar, and are likely upset that WITCH never really caught on while Avatar did, but c'mon, constantly trying to put down Avatar in comparasion to WITCH just makes your side look bad and immature.

In my honest opinion, Phobos was devious and a cool villain but his plan really hinged on Elyon being a complete idiot rather than intelligence on his side. Just act the part of a Gary Stu big brother and fill his palace with pwetty flowers and whatnot, and have Elyon blindly believe him. That Elyon never saw the end result coming just reinforced that it was more her than him that allowed his plan to suceed; especially sad seeing as in the original comics Elyon was alot smarter and the final battle situation was alot more interesting.
 
We saw that valunable side of Azula back in season 2, in her first episode. When she was fire bending on that ship, and she had a hair out of place and went crazy because of her imprefection.

So seeing Azula being beyond just evil, was not unexpecting if you paid attention to that scene in season 2.

At the end of the finale, I wanted her to die, not for reasons I thought I wanted her to die, but because I felt sorry for her and thought it would merciful to just end her suffering, like a sick animal.

Actully Azula reminds me of many Bleach antagonists. She is complex, and you can't help but feel sorry for her, but not sorry enough that you forget all of her evil deeds and how she has to be stopped. I don't go out of my way to mention other shows, but I am just thought.
 
I think Zuko may have that considered as a last resort; but he didn't do it right away because he's still holding out for the hope of finding Ursa, and lord knows if anyone can help Azula get a grip on sanity it would be her; a big part of it's source.
 
I can't speak for Marn Hierogryph, but as far as I know, his/her writing didn't sound immature nor bad. He/She was just making a comparison and providing reasonings and backings behind it. Though I don't necessary agree with what he or she says (for example, I think Azula's demise was handled brilliantly).

And no offense, but you're really not one to talk. I've often seen you jump in somewhat aggressively whenever someone puts down Avatar, such as now. Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't mean to assume.
 
I think you're confusing me with someone else (whom I vaguely remember too....wasn't it Manefested or something?) I myself have recently stated that however good, Avatar's not the end-all be-all animated show and shouldn't be treated as such.

And I didn't care at all if Marn was putting down Avatar or not, it's the namedropping and comparasion to WITCH when it has no relevance whatsoever to the discussion that bugs me (this isn't the first time it's happened, and not just with Avatar either, S/he is giving off the vibe that s/he feels that every animated show must be measured in comparasion to WITCH.) Like I said above, Avatar shouldn't be overrated to an extreme (same goes for Kim Possible, which I also feel gets the same treatment from fans,) and neither should WITCH, and that's what I feel is being done when it gets shoehorned into near every darn animation discussion Marn enters.

You may be right, of coure, but likewise you're not one to tell me that...and correct me if I'm wrong here, but aren't you a staunch Danny Phantom defender? In any case, this is getting off topic... :sweat: This is supposed to be about whether or not Ozai was suitable as Aang's final opponent, to which I'd say he was; also using the "Emperor justification". It's not so much him as a character that makes Aang fighting and defeating him satisfying, but what he represents as a whole: the tyranny of the Fire Nation and their 100 year war.

...Oh, and he's the main source of Zuko's angst, which was a pain for him and us to go through.
That's just grounds for hating him right there.
 
Calm down, I never accused you as the type to see Avatar as some godly show. I also have no clue who Manefested is.

I never had too much of a problem when one show is compared to another; as long as a person makes their point, it`s enough reasoning for me, so it may be a different point of view.



Except my reasonings were on observations of my thoughts on your constant and frequent need to butt in whenever someone makes a negative mark about Avatar, (I`m not denying I haven`t done my share, but I blame that on a younger me years back; I haven`t glazed over every negative DP comments there is since and truthfully refuse to say anything unless I absolutely must), sometimes in a condescending manner.

That one topic I wrote about on my comparsion between DP and Avatar had you responding in bewilderment, stating you couldn`t believe it. I admit, it kinda stung. I never said anything because I`m often neutral and refuse to cause a big scene (I debated saying anything here), but I guess I got kind of annoyed today. I am also not forcing you to change your way either, but giving a perspective from what I`ve seen. I apologize if I accused too far though.
 
Please stop arguing over people instead of positions in an argument, especially if it seems that the people in question aren't even here. It's rude, off-topic, and also technically a violation of the rules.



I think it's a little simpler than that: Zuko isn't a killer. There were several times where he had means, motive, and opportunity to kill someone, and he chose not to -- the Agni Kai with Cmdr. Zhao, the Earth Kingdom soldier bully in "Zuko Alone," Ozai in "Day of Black Sun," and Combustion Man in "The Western Air Temple" are the ones that come up off the top of my head. It might be a bowing to BS&P violence standards, but it's also the first hint that he's not as horrible as you might expect him to be when you first meet him.

I think there are circumstances where he will kill someone -- he comes from an exceptionally potent warrior culture and he does scoff at Aang for Airbender ethics at the end of season 3 -- but it's not an alternative he will go for too often. In fact, despite all his pointed questions, I don't think Zuko would have killed Ozai either if he were in the same position as Aang in the finale.

-- Ed
 
The circumstances we were talking about was different. It was not killing out of rage, anger, or because the person deserved it (though Azula probably does), but quite the opposite, it is to kill out of compasion and to show mercery to a person that mentally sick beyond repair.
 
I see what you're saying, but the thing is, would Zuko or Katara have the right to judge that she was 'beyond repair' at that place and time?
 
I don't see what's wrong with making a comparison so long as it's valid and comparable. I just liked the way WITCH portrayed it's villains by showing their side of the story and not keeping them in the dark until the end, that's all. I liked getting to know the villains (all of them) and seeing how they operate and would just like to see more shows make their villains prominent characters rather than simply figureheads. They did it for Azula and even a minor villain like Zhao, just not Ozai, who was the main baddy.

I don't see that as relatable; being a perfectionist doesn't equate to being crazy. Also, her plans have often failed in season 2 and she took things not going her way calmly (The Chase); or even comically (The Drill); if she was really that sensitive about having things go perfect, then it should have popped up at those times. I would say the hair thing is just for the viewer's first impression of her (For viewers to go "Oh, she's really strict compared to Zuko and Iroh, gotcha")

I completely understand what they were tyring to do with her character, but I felt it was just tacked on too late. We really don't see her snap or break down until the finale; even after her huge drill got destroyed she just sort of took Mai's joke about it; maybe showing her crying after that and taking a minute to regain her composure would have been a nice hint. I would have liked to see some kind of little development towards her fate in each of her appearances, rather than all at once.
 
I should've pointed this out in my first post, but no one said you have to feel sorry for Azula. I sure as heck don't.
To see a character become calm, manipulative cow, to going crazy was pretty satisfying.
Or maybe I'm just sadistic. After all, seeing her in this state
Failure_by_DrAvatar.jpg


....kinda makes me happy.



That would of been pretty good. But then her defeat wouldn't have been so satisfying.

But the reason we see her go crazy the way she did, is because her world was crumbling around her pretty fast. Her brother betraying the Fire Nation has led her friends to turn their back against her (and her insanity slipping from that was evident in the The Southern Raiders). And although he probably didn't intend it, Ozai leaving to attack the Earth Kingdom alone, felt that she was being abandoned as she now has no one left. Plus she was now going to be the Fire Lord, and she was worried everyone was going to betray her. And seeing her brother come to take the throne from her, and get healed after she defeated him since unlike her, Zuko had allies to help him......having her world crumble around her when she was so in control (and what seems over the course of a month), is enough to drive her, or anyone crazy.

But that's just my opinion.
 
Back
Top