italian guy
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What do you mean by that?
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Discussion: Does the Block make the Show?
- Thread starter roxyychick !
- Start date
ericfromsouthpark
New member
What I mean is, when Toonami's focus got off of pure action and started to drift more towards kid friendly animation particularly after moving to Saturdays, the block stopped drawing in people for a genre and you started seeing Toonami's ratings be more spiky as people would tune in for what they wanted to watch and leave more often.
When Toonami was in full swing in 1999, 2000 and early 2001 you could see the ratings in every show in the block were pretty consistent. Yea, DBZ was performing higher, but it wasn't hands, arms, shoulders and heads above every other show on the block.
When Toonami shifted to having in 2004 to Saturdays you started to see spikier ratings in the block. By 2006 when Pokemon was brought onboard, the block was starting to shatter almost entirely because they couldn't keep consistent ratings in the block anymore. The block was reaching out to too many genres and too many demographics.
Essentially, it tends to support my theory that as long as you can keep a well tuned block within a nice time frame and keep your genre / message consistent, every other show on the block should benefit.
I really think the first time we saw Toonami start to falter is when it moved to a 3 hour weekday block. It was just too much stress for the block coupled with the shifting support.
When Toonami was in full swing in 1999, 2000 and early 2001 you could see the ratings in every show in the block were pretty consistent. Yea, DBZ was performing higher, but it wasn't hands, arms, shoulders and heads above every other show on the block.
When Toonami shifted to having in 2004 to Saturdays you started to see spikier ratings in the block. By 2006 when Pokemon was brought onboard, the block was starting to shatter almost entirely because they couldn't keep consistent ratings in the block anymore. The block was reaching out to too many genres and too many demographics.
Essentially, it tends to support my theory that as long as you can keep a well tuned block within a nice time frame and keep your genre / message consistent, every other show on the block should benefit.
I really think the first time we saw Toonami start to falter is when it moved to a 3 hour weekday block. It was just too much stress for the block coupled with the shifting support.
Shawn F. Jacobson
New member
To answer the part of your reply that was aimed at me, if a new show was coming out and was going to be airing on a block that housed a slew of shows I was fond of I would surly give the show a chance, but that's because I give all new shows a chance before I pass judgement on them, not because the program is airing on a block I happen to like. Let's take Toonami or CN's Friday Night Action for example, I love both blocks but both had shows I wasn't a fan of so when they came on I changed the channel, I didn't watch Toonami to see a CGI robot looking at the screen asking me to "stay tuned" nor do I watch Friday Night Action to see a golden blob slide across my television screen. I did however watch both blocks for the programming, bumpers and other segments were nothing more than added attraction and a fun sideshow.
No.
I only ever watch the shows that look interesting to me; I've never tuned into a show just because it was airing on Toonami or any other block, for that matter. I rarely watch every single show on a block, except on those rare occasion when the block is full of shows that I like.
To use Toonami as the example, I watched all of Toonami weekdays when its' schedule consisted of Sailor Moon, ReBoot, DBZ, Gundam Wing, Tenchi Muyo! and Outlaw Star, and Toonami Saturdays when the lineup was Teen Titans, then JLU, then Megas XLR, then Yu Yu Hakusho, but when CN began shuffling the lineup and replacing the good shows that I liked, I went back to only watching the 1 or 2 shows that interested me. The fact that it was Toonami these shows were airing on had nothing to do with it.
I never watched Toonami for TOM or the Absolution, nor did I watch Miguzi for Erin and the sunken spaceship monsters or You Are Here for King Nood. I watched when they had a show that I cared about. The block itself and its' wraparounds were just a nice little extra touch, like the breadsticks with dipping sauce on the side of my expensive meal at a fancy restaurant.
I only ever watch the shows that look interesting to me; I've never tuned into a show just because it was airing on Toonami or any other block, for that matter. I rarely watch every single show on a block, except on those rare occasion when the block is full of shows that I like.
To use Toonami as the example, I watched all of Toonami weekdays when its' schedule consisted of Sailor Moon, ReBoot, DBZ, Gundam Wing, Tenchi Muyo! and Outlaw Star, and Toonami Saturdays when the lineup was Teen Titans, then JLU, then Megas XLR, then Yu Yu Hakusho, but when CN began shuffling the lineup and replacing the good shows that I liked, I went back to only watching the 1 or 2 shows that interested me. The fact that it was Toonami these shows were airing on had nothing to do with it.
I never watched Toonami for TOM or the Absolution, nor did I watch Miguzi for Erin and the sunken spaceship monsters or You Are Here for King Nood. I watched when they had a show that I cared about. The block itself and its' wraparounds were just a nice little extra touch, like the breadsticks with dipping sauce on the side of my expensive meal at a fancy restaurant.
A particular block can be what exposes you to a show in the first place. So with that being the case, a block can certainly help a show gain exposure. But in the end, it's up to the show to prove itself good enough to remain on the block. Or else it ends up possibly getting moved, or canceled all together.
Say what you will about Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh! GX but they're still technically action shows. Saturday night Toonami always had some younger targeted fluff in the 7 hour. When they lost those two hours they scaled back to just their heaviest hitters (Naruto, One Piece and good 'ol DBZ). They only aired Bakugan once before switching it out and Blue Dragon didn't last either. Ben 10: Alien Force and Samurai Jack were the last two additions with Naruto and if it was CN's goal to continue to offer the best action shows they had at the time then that line-up was pretty much that.
Actually I'm pretty sure there were many years when DBZ was clobbering the other shows on Toonami but it didn't repel viewers from those other shows.
I don't know if that's the case at all. While Naruto continued to do very well, so did One Piece, so did Zatch Bell, so did surprisingly enough Bo-Bobo. I recall a CN rep said around the time Goosebumps was airing the highest rated shows with 9-14 were Bo-Bobo, One Piece, Naruto and Goosebumps.
Perhaps but there are numerous cases of similarly themed cartoons getting weeded out of blocks for either getting the wrong audience or no audience.
Depends on which time that was. It was 3 hours in early 2001 and that line-up was awesome. Ronin Warriors, Sailor Moon, Gundam Wing, DBZ, Outlaw Star and Batman: TAS later swapping in The Big O, Superman: TAS and Tenchi in Tokyo. Only at the point when they had to resort to 2 episodes of Dragon Ball and 2 episodes of Dragon Ball Z daily was the block lacking in variety and showing signs of being unable to fill it's time without overusing a proven hit. Once again proof that for years DBZ (and maybe Dragon Ball) were heads and shoulders above the other shows at the time.
Now you know I loved Toonami and I loved it dearly. Stuck with it until the bitter end and I can honestly say they packaging never made me stick around to watch a show I didn't care for. I watched Hamtaro because I thought it was amusing regardless of how out of place it was. If anything maybe Toonami got me to try shows I wouldn't have otherwise because they were airing next to DBZ but you don't need a block to accomplish that. You need strategic scheduling. It's adequate exposure that truly matters, not if it is or isn't on a block.
Shows make the block. Toonami saved DBZ but DBZ made Toonami in its hey day and Naruto made Toonami in it's dying days.
However when you have the combination of both great programming and great packaging your bound to draw attention and that's exactly what Toonami did like Fox Kids, Kids' WB, The Disney Afternoon and One Saturday Morning. Were those blocks and their packaging more important than any of the popular shows that aired on them? No, not at all.
Actually I'm pretty sure there were many years when DBZ was clobbering the other shows on Toonami but it didn't repel viewers from those other shows.
I don't know if that's the case at all. While Naruto continued to do very well, so did One Piece, so did Zatch Bell, so did surprisingly enough Bo-Bobo. I recall a CN rep said around the time Goosebumps was airing the highest rated shows with 9-14 were Bo-Bobo, One Piece, Naruto and Goosebumps.
Perhaps but there are numerous cases of similarly themed cartoons getting weeded out of blocks for either getting the wrong audience or no audience.
Depends on which time that was. It was 3 hours in early 2001 and that line-up was awesome. Ronin Warriors, Sailor Moon, Gundam Wing, DBZ, Outlaw Star and Batman: TAS later swapping in The Big O, Superman: TAS and Tenchi in Tokyo. Only at the point when they had to resort to 2 episodes of Dragon Ball and 2 episodes of Dragon Ball Z daily was the block lacking in variety and showing signs of being unable to fill it's time without overusing a proven hit. Once again proof that for years DBZ (and maybe Dragon Ball) were heads and shoulders above the other shows at the time.
Now you know I loved Toonami and I loved it dearly. Stuck with it until the bitter end and I can honestly say they packaging never made me stick around to watch a show I didn't care for. I watched Hamtaro because I thought it was amusing regardless of how out of place it was. If anything maybe Toonami got me to try shows I wouldn't have otherwise because they were airing next to DBZ but you don't need a block to accomplish that. You need strategic scheduling. It's adequate exposure that truly matters, not if it is or isn't on a block.
Shows make the block. Toonami saved DBZ but DBZ made Toonami in its hey day and Naruto made Toonami in it's dying days.
However when you have the combination of both great programming and great packaging your bound to draw attention and that's exactly what Toonami did like Fox Kids, Kids' WB, The Disney Afternoon and One Saturday Morning. Were those blocks and their packaging more important than any of the popular shows that aired on them? No, not at all.
I'm started to get tempted to upload some graphs to demonstrate what precisely I mean. I kinda wish I had all my data from our various discussions in the Toonami forum here that I had used to make points (PS I still really miss William. He was great at helping discussions along with facts!).
Here's a (bad) example I drew up quick from Google Docs:
http://goo.gl/HrdoF
Note those numbers aren't accurate, I am just making an example of what I mean.
Essentially what I mean is when you look at graphs that show the build up in viewers up to DBZ Premiers it was always a consistent climb and a consistent decline coming off of DBZ. Sure, DBZ was slamming the ratings, but its acclimation into the block made the various other ratings climb along with it so much to the point that there were peaks where Gundam Wing was actually pulling in more ratings then DBZ at points.
After you saw things like Sailormoon and Reboot leave the block, ESPECIALLY after the increase to 3 hours, those ratings become more dodgy. You'd have one show perform really well and the next show perform not as well, etc. That, to my recollection is also when Toonami was doing less cross promotion and relying too much on the block's success.
Thats rally the point I am driving home here over and over. If you have a WELL MANAGED block, you can pull in viewers to shows that might not usually watch that show. Every single person when really pushed on that point in this thread has agreed about that so far.
The thing that does tend to make this debate a little harder to illustrate is Toonami was really the only block of its kind ever. You had some good blocks in the past like Cartoon Express, Fridays amongst other ones that helped cross promote their shows, but you also have other blocks like Animation Domination that has done nothing to help or support its shows. Its "block format" is so loose that it barely uses bumpers and it barely cross promotes its shows.
Like anything though, when I talk about all these dynamics, its completely a team effort between the relationship of the Block, its shows and the synergy there in. As long as the synergy holds strong, cross marketing is easy and fun for the viewers, if shows lack synergy, then it becomes a little harder and a block really doesn't define those collection of shows well.
Here's a (bad) example I drew up quick from Google Docs:
http://goo.gl/HrdoF
Note those numbers aren't accurate, I am just making an example of what I mean.
Essentially what I mean is when you look at graphs that show the build up in viewers up to DBZ Premiers it was always a consistent climb and a consistent decline coming off of DBZ. Sure, DBZ was slamming the ratings, but its acclimation into the block made the various other ratings climb along with it so much to the point that there were peaks where Gundam Wing was actually pulling in more ratings then DBZ at points.
After you saw things like Sailormoon and Reboot leave the block, ESPECIALLY after the increase to 3 hours, those ratings become more dodgy. You'd have one show perform really well and the next show perform not as well, etc. That, to my recollection is also when Toonami was doing less cross promotion and relying too much on the block's success.
Thats rally the point I am driving home here over and over. If you have a WELL MANAGED block, you can pull in viewers to shows that might not usually watch that show. Every single person when really pushed on that point in this thread has agreed about that so far.
The thing that does tend to make this debate a little harder to illustrate is Toonami was really the only block of its kind ever. You had some good blocks in the past like Cartoon Express, Fridays amongst other ones that helped cross promote their shows, but you also have other blocks like Animation Domination that has done nothing to help or support its shows. Its "block format" is so loose that it barely uses bumpers and it barely cross promotes its shows.
Like anything though, when I talk about all these dynamics, its completely a team effort between the relationship of the Block, its shows and the synergy there in. As long as the synergy holds strong, cross marketing is easy and fun for the viewers, if shows lack synergy, then it becomes a little harder and a block really doesn't define those collection of shows well.
rayallen34
New member
Eh, lemme put it this way; numbers can track and even predict behaviors to a certain degree, but they don't exactly EXPLAIN behaviors.
From a purely numerical standpoint, a block can make or break a show. But you forget that what makes up the block is the show, what makes the show is it's quality, and who decides quality? People.
People who have given you a pretty good look at their viewing behaviors that can NOT be explained by numbers alone.
If the show is good, people will watch it provided it isn't on at an inconvenient time. If the show is in a block, the show will help boost the shows around it provided the synergy is right. Most people will give a new show a chance if it's airing in a block of similar shows (unless, of course, the premise doesn't appeal to them at all). Few people will watch a show they dislike simply because it airs in a block of shows they DO like. TV's have remotes; people know how to use them.
Good branding goes a long way, but it can't do everything.
From a purely numerical standpoint, a block can make or break a show. But you forget that what makes up the block is the show, what makes the show is it's quality, and who decides quality? People.
People who have given you a pretty good look at their viewing behaviors that can NOT be explained by numbers alone.
If the show is good, people will watch it provided it isn't on at an inconvenient time. If the show is in a block, the show will help boost the shows around it provided the synergy is right. Most people will give a new show a chance if it's airing in a block of similar shows (unless, of course, the premise doesn't appeal to them at all). Few people will watch a show they dislike simply because it airs in a block of shows they DO like. TV's have remotes; people know how to use them.
Good branding goes a long way, but it can't do everything.
Alicia Sophia
New member
No, it can't do everything. As I've made the draw already, if you try to make a block, it doesn't automatically mean its going to do a dang for the shows.
I'll still argue though that a well established block is going to help every show that comes onto it, at least to some degree.
Once again, I go back to DBZ. It FAILED in other markets, HORRIBLY. On Toonami though, it was an instant success. Toonami did a good thing in making the decision to bring the show to the block *AND* help market it.
Having DBZ on Toonami added to the value of what Toonami was in a very significant way. But in retrospect, it was a very symbiotic relationship. Toonami made DBZ, DBZ made Toonami.
I'll still argue though that a well established block is going to help every show that comes onto it, at least to some degree.
Once again, I go back to DBZ. It FAILED in other markets, HORRIBLY. On Toonami though, it was an instant success. Toonami did a good thing in making the decision to bring the show to the block *AND* help market it.
Having DBZ on Toonami added to the value of what Toonami was in a very significant way. But in retrospect, it was a very symbiotic relationship. Toonami made DBZ, DBZ made Toonami.
dormantsol
New member
The block does not make the show. The shows make the block, period. If the lineup of shows absolutely stink, you could have the greatest bumpers known to man and people still wouldn't tune in. On the flipside, a block can have sucky, cheap bumpers and still draw in viewers with a strong lineup.
And honestly, I get the feeling that if some other block got cancelled instead of Toonami, we wouldn't be debating this right now.
And honestly, I get the feeling that if some other block got cancelled instead of Toonami, we wouldn't be debating this right now.
stitches347
New member
So once again, I have to ask you the same question I asked everyone else who made that precise argument in this thread: Is there ANY SHOW You personally watched because it was on Toonami that you may never given a second look at before it was there?
Heather (:
New member
Dragonball Z, but only because none of my local networks had it in syndication the first time around.
Jamal Timbukkake
New member
So Gundam Wing, Ronin Warriors, Power Puff Girls, Outlaw Star, Reboot, Sailormoon, Evangelion, Yu Yu Hukasho, Rouri Kenshin --- all those series you would have gone out and watched (provided you like(d) them) if you never seen them on Toonami?
allinpink_girl
New member
You see what you're suggesting is good promotion and being near similar enough shows is what helps new shows succeed and this is very true but they don't have to be on a block.
There's also a little thing call word of mouth and it's how a lot of shows get noticed. There's also chance encounters and coming across clips or trailers through other means than television broadcast. Especially now that we have such a vast library of content on the internet alone.
Obviously trailers are important. They sell plenty of movies by themselves. But if we're talking about a widespread movie that's in as many theatres as possible does it matter which theatre you go see it at? Not really but different theatres can offer different experiences just as different channels and blocks on channels can offer different experiences for the same media.
Having shows in a block and promoting them as a block is a good way to promote shows but the block doesn't need special packaging, that just might help. I can think of one instance in particular in how that might keep people watching. If you just turn on the TV at 5PM and decide you don't want to watch just a half hour or an hour but rather about 2 maybe 3 at most but you have other things to do as well so you want to limit yourself. I think plenty of people knowing there's a 2 hour block of shows on would say "okay I'll just watch this block in that time and then turn the TV off" but that could also be true of a blocking of shows. Keeping a few shows of a similar style or theme back to back. On channels where comedy is more commonly aired than action it makes an action block stand out as a unique experience compared to the rest of the day's programming.
That's really what Toonami had going for it. Prime time was mostly comedies, early afternoons were often comedies as well and all the other networks were airing comedies in the every evening so Toonami was an alternative to all those comedy shows whether it was the afternoon block or the Saturday evening block.
A block with similar programming to the rest of the network can certainly still succeed though. Cartoon Cartoon Fridays / CN Fridays for example. It was a good way for kids to see all those shows when they might have missed other airings during the week. So when shows air also matters a lot. That daily afterschool slot is an ideal place to strip shows with ongoing stories. They're easier to catch than prime time usually and that's a big reason why weekday afternoon Toonami was a much bigger success than Saturday night Toonami.
There's also a little thing call word of mouth and it's how a lot of shows get noticed. There's also chance encounters and coming across clips or trailers through other means than television broadcast. Especially now that we have such a vast library of content on the internet alone.
Obviously trailers are important. They sell plenty of movies by themselves. But if we're talking about a widespread movie that's in as many theatres as possible does it matter which theatre you go see it at? Not really but different theatres can offer different experiences just as different channels and blocks on channels can offer different experiences for the same media.
Having shows in a block and promoting them as a block is a good way to promote shows but the block doesn't need special packaging, that just might help. I can think of one instance in particular in how that might keep people watching. If you just turn on the TV at 5PM and decide you don't want to watch just a half hour or an hour but rather about 2 maybe 3 at most but you have other things to do as well so you want to limit yourself. I think plenty of people knowing there's a 2 hour block of shows on would say "okay I'll just watch this block in that time and then turn the TV off" but that could also be true of a blocking of shows. Keeping a few shows of a similar style or theme back to back. On channels where comedy is more commonly aired than action it makes an action block stand out as a unique experience compared to the rest of the day's programming.
That's really what Toonami had going for it. Prime time was mostly comedies, early afternoons were often comedies as well and all the other networks were airing comedies in the every evening so Toonami was an alternative to all those comedy shows whether it was the afternoon block or the Saturday evening block.
A block with similar programming to the rest of the network can certainly still succeed though. Cartoon Cartoon Fridays / CN Fridays for example. It was a good way for kids to see all those shows when they might have missed other airings during the week. So when shows air also matters a lot. That daily afterschool slot is an ideal place to strip shows with ongoing stories. They're easier to catch than prime time usually and that's a big reason why weekday afternoon Toonami was a much bigger success than Saturday night Toonami.
Personally, I had seen most of those shows before they were even on Toonami be they on YTV or Adult Swim or friend recommendations. I merely followed them there after I had seen them.
Nonetheless, the last few years of the block were garbage, and the packaging sure didn't help me stick around to watch it.
Nonetheless, the last few years of the block were garbage, and the packaging sure didn't help me stick around to watch it.
That's what I have been driving at most of this time and I was kind of waiting for someone else to drive home that point.
You see, at the end of the day, people love things wrapped up in nice little packages for them so they don't really need to think about what to view. This is by and large why I still argue streaming will never be as successful as TV until they find a way to do that (different topic).
Blocks are simply a very controlled, very classified way of cross promotional advertising.
The only different is that you make an artifical wrapper around everything you're promoting and saying LOOK HERE. WATCH THIS STUFF. ITS SIMILAR!.
Just like how I highlighted part of that last sentence in red, Toonami, or rather Blocks have the unlimited potential to highlight things just like that if done right.
You see, at the end of the day, people love things wrapped up in nice little packages for them so they don't really need to think about what to view. This is by and large why I still argue streaming will never be as successful as TV until they find a way to do that (different topic).
Blocks are simply a very controlled, very classified way of cross promotional advertising.
The only different is that you make an artifical wrapper around everything you're promoting and saying LOOK HERE. WATCH THIS STUFF. ITS SIMILAR!.
Just like how I highlighted part of that last sentence in red, Toonami, or rather Blocks have the unlimited potential to highlight things just like that if done right.