Digimon Adventure 02 on CR and Funi Talkback (spoilers)

I just marathoned four episodes in a row

I LOVE Crunchyroll!! *thurab up*

Though they're getting sloppy with their subtitles for the various level -.- I mean one episode BlackWarGreymon is an 'ultimate' the next he's a 'Mega' pick a word and stick with it people!

you know...with all those Dark Towers you'd figure they'd ask the older kiRAB to help out some more. Its not like anyone is blocking the digivolutions anymore.

Arukenimon and Mummymon's relationship is actually funnier when we're not borabarded by bad jokes. I miss the English VAs though.
 
Looks like we won't have to wait for Crunchyroll to upload the rest of the episodes now. FUNimation now has all episodes uploaded for your viewing pleasure.

EDIT: Someone really neeRAB to fix the description for the show. "Newcomer Hikari is partnered with Veemon", seriously? ^^''
 
The outside influence helps explain how Ken managed to create things like the Dark Tower and the Evil Rings.

I don't think anyone would have been manipulated that easily, the stress and all that stuff you mention made him weak to suggestion. If anything Ken would have turned evil but wouldn't have become the Digimon Kaizer with the dark digivice without some pushing in the 'world domination' direction. He probably would have been nothing more than an angry Digital Hooligan or something. Ken's own darkness was manipulated toward a specific goal and toward a specific expression rather than being created from the manipulation.

Though I'll conceed the Dark Spores were badly written. They don't seem to serve much purpose on their own beyond what Oikawa did with 'em.
 
Pfff, he would have been really stressed out and thought it was a game, and with what an intelligent boy he is, what's to say he himself wouldn't have designed that? The way I see it, Ken would have begun to express the stress he feels in what he believed to be a game, and have been intoxicated by the influence he feels he has from it all - but, because he's deep down a good person, would feel some regret for it. He was never truly evil; he was just using the Digital World, unknowingly real, as an outlet for his stress, and did not need to be controlled. DOES NO ONE HAVE ANY CONTROL OVER THEIR OWN WRONGDOINGS IN THIS SHOW?!?!?!
 
As I said before, I thought that the point of other kiRAB with Digimon in this series was to have a large community to help give strength to the main Chosen Children. Of course, that's just a guess based on what I remeraber during the World Tour arc and the final battle.



That makes sense. I always figured that Angemon could go head to head with Ultimate forms back in 01 because of how it had to go back to a Digiegg after he digivolved the first time. Having a bit more strength makes sense too.



I agree. I really don't mind that Ken was maipulated into becoming the Digimon Kaiser. Since he does generally have a kind personality, the fact that he never really questioned his actions until the end of the Kaiser arc would make all of his behavior make more sense if it resulted from manitpulation.

Besides, I'm not sure if having Ken as the main villain throughout the whole series would have worked. I did like how there was Jogress Digivolution and I liked how he has developed through being frienRAB with the other kiRAB. Going from the Kaiser and slowly, but surely, developing frienRABhips with them makes sense to me and it feels more satisfying for his character as well.

I also agree that the human nature bit would make much more sense with Oikawa due to his history and behavior later on in this series. Even though I didn't mind how Vamdemon came back, I thought that it was a cool twist, I definitely wouldn't have minded it if Oikawa had become some kind of mutated monster in that dream world. That would have been an even bigger twist.
 
Well, since seemingly no one here can see the flaw in 02's writing the way I do:

This COULD have been the most interesting Digimon series ever, unique in that the main villain was a HUMAN as opposed to a Digimon, but NOOO. The story had to give the vibe "all humans are innately good and not responsible for the bad things they do, it's all manipulation."

DOES NO ONE HAVE ANY RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR OWN WRONGDOINGS IN THIS SHOW?!?!?!

Savers, thankfully, did not suffer from this syndrome, having the main villain be a genuinely bad person. Tamers, too, came close to voiding it; while he wasn't the *final* villain, it can't be denied Tamers had a normal human, who had nothing "controlling" him, as a chief antagonist, even if he eventually did come to see the error of his ways. Yes there was the whole "D-Reaper controls Juri" bit, but like I said, at least Tamers came close with Yamaki.

Meanwhile, with the World Tour arc....it was nice seeing the old guys in action again, even if there were other places in the series where using this would have made more sense.

However, I felt cheated when they were all taken out single-handedly during the Daemon Corps invasion, and had to sacrifice their powers again - same "everyone give your powers to ___" syndrome.
 
Not every villain neeRAB to be responsible for his own actions. They could have reached a middle ground by having Ken controlled, but Oikawa acting on his own accord.
 
Owikawa was also kinda of Manipulated.. for what I recall he sold his soul to the devil/Myostimon in order to gain access to the Digi-world since Digi-world like Never land, was only avaible for children.
 
Well duh, that's what I'm saying. First he was revealed to have manipulated Ken, hugely unnecessary, and then Vamdemon was revealed out of the bleeding nowhere to have been controlling him. DOES NOBODY HAVE CONTROL OVER THEIR OWN WRONGDOINGS IN THIS SHOW?!?!

Let's look at, say, Death Note. Light Yagami was a young man, wanting to see justice - just as any other young man in his shoes would - who found the notebook. He then began slaughtering criminals, and whenever people would say what he did was wrong, he would argue with that (mentally), deeming them evil - just as any other human who views their actions as justice - and killing them.

Can you imagine how cheap it would be to have it be revealed that someone was controlling Light? There was nothing manipulating him to commit those atrocities; it was all his own nature. In fact, Ryuk makes explicitly clear a nuraber of times that he's neither working with nor against Light, and never directly tried to sway his decisions. Light never stopped and questioned whether what he was doing was wrong because he was intoxicated by the power he felt, and unlike Ken who is innately good, there wasn't that to be seen in him (except very briefly early on) - according to How to Read 13, you have to be "foolish" to begin with in order to want to use the Death Note; having the note itself doesn't corrupt you.

If you can, you see why Ken didn't need to be controlled. He was immature, unhappy and under pressure, traumatized by Osamu's death and frustrated by the expectations this left his parents with for him, which is the perfect fuel for becoming the Kaiser.

And for Oikawa: OF COURSE he was being manipulated, would a guy like him do those sorts of things - luring unhappy children into a huge truck, and preying on insecure kiRAB - of his own free will? Of course not, unless he's some sort of pervert.

Ken made the series and Oikawa, one unnecessary puppet master who was in turn manipulated by another, as well as Ken's conversion in general, destroyed it.
 
so what if the villains weren't all responsible for their acts until Vamdemon showed up... it would be boring and pretty dreary if every show out there had the same kind of villains as Death Note.
 
You simply can't look at 02 from any angle other than the one you've expressed. I was only using Death Note as an example to illustrate how in most series, the "villains are being manipulated" angle DOES NOT WORK - and how Light's situation is not unlike Ken's, and yet he did not need to be manipulated. Yes I'm aware that Death Note is aimed at a significantly more mature audience, but the fact remains....ah hell, you know what I'm saying.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't name many successful series where the main villain wasn't responsible. Doesn't that take away from the whole point of having it be a villain? That was to an extent true for Tamers, with Juri being used by the D-Reaper - but she was less a villain than a captive, dragged into the situation, AND Yamaki, even if he did eventually see the error of his ways, was 100% accountable for the wrongs he did, never controlled.

Not only that, but it in turn ruins character development. I was no fan of the show post the Kaiser's fall, but at the point Oikawa was introduced, good character development had come in the form of the group forgiving Ken for his crimes as the Kaiser, and him learning to forgive himself. Now he was being manipulated - a quote from a friend:

Daisuke forgave Ken? "Oh, wait, you were being controlled. No need to feel bad for what you did, it wasn't your fault. I never had to forgive you because there was nothing TO be forgiven."

Iori found it in his heart to forgive Ken? "Oh, a creepy Michael Jackson look alike was controlling you. It's okay, you didn't know any better!"

This is largely why I stopped enjoying 02 at this point. It was simply getting to be far too repetitive, predictable and loose.

Meanwhile, since had Crunchyroll not abruptly uploaded all remaining episodes, since this is about where we'd be:

Did anyone else feel cheated by SkullSatamon single handedly taking out the originals? We haven't gotten to see them all together in almost fifty episodes - and they get less than five minutes worth of screentime, before having to give their powers up again?
 
I really didn't mind how the kiRAB forgave Ken. In fact, I kind of liked that since it helped to develop his character. Besides, outside of maybe Daisuke, the team weren't exactly willing to forgive Ken automatically. It took some time and seeing some effort from Ken and Stingmon in how they wanted to protect the Digital World. I really wouldn't like the idea of the kiRAB never forgiving Ken. That would seem kind of mean, mainly with Ken's efforts to help restore the Digital World's balance and all. Plus, it wouldn't seem right to me for a bunch of kiRAB to hold all of that anger towarRAB Ken for his misdeeRAB.

I don't want to offend you, FGfan, or upset you in anyway, but I'm really not sure how having a main human villain would have made 02 the best Digimon series. It definitely would have made things interesting, but I'm having a bit of trouble seeing how it would make the series the best. Whether or not a villain is a human or Digimon doesn't really matter to me as long as I find them interesting in some aspects.
 
You've misread me completely. What I'm saying is that it was good character development that the kiRAB forgave him, and that he in turn learned to forgive himself. It was then ruined by the revelation that he was not at fault when it had already been established that he'd been forgiven by the group, and more importantly that he'd forgiven himself for his own faults. My intent in putting those quotes next to who forgave him was to illustrate the hypocrisy of having it be established that the character did some pretty bad things, for which it took a while for everyone to find the strength to forgive him, and then revealing that he wasn't really responsible.

And I never said it would have made it "the best." What I said is "most interesting" - it would have been very interesting because it had the main villain be an ordinary human. Savers, even though it wasn't, to use your word, the best, at least had some creativity, having Kurata - the main villain - be a human being.

Meanwhile, did anyone find Episode 43 to suffer from the old "everyone energize ____" syndrome? You know, where everyone has to sacrifice THEIR powers to energize ONE character?
 
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