Did the Mona Lisa paint itself? Did the Hubble Telescope spontaneously

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Qingwen

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appear? Did the Great Wall just happen? How could this vast, endless, beginningless universe with the incredibly complex systems just happen?

ARGUMENT: self evident, it is always very difficult to 'prove the self evident' why?
The Creator has always existed as has the creation.
The 'first designer' either 'designed itself' or always existed. It is self-evident that the Creator always existed. It is also self-evident that the Creator always had a creation. Hence, His name - the Fashioner.
see above for 'self evident'
Justin H: your inability to grasp the directness of the reasoning is not really relevant
 
Pretty simple: it didn't formed from the beginning into the complex system it is today. Duh. Energy caused an "explosion" (Big Bang), formed matter (solidified energy), space (what matter consumes) and time (what the movement of atoms creates). Gradually, through billions of years, as the laws of physics started applying more complex material structures formed and so on and so on until life spawned and we ended up in what we have today.
 
Pretty simple: it didn't formed from the beginning into the complex system it is today. Duh. Energy caused an "explosion" (Big Bang), formed matter (solidified energy), space (what matter consumes) and time (what the movement of atoms creates). Gradually, through billions of years, as the laws of physics started applying more complex material structures formed and so on and so on until life spawned and we ended up in what we have today.
 
How did a vast, endless, beginning-less God just happen?
To explain the process that this universe went through would take a lot of time and a lot more scientific knowledge than I have.
 
What's your point? All that stuff is the result of human activity. It does not matter whether humans came from the Big Bang, the "6 days of creation", or were deposited on earth by aliens the day before construction started on the Great Wall. They were here, they did those things.
 
By your logic, how could a God intelligent enough to create all the complex laws of the universe "just happen"? By saying the universe was created by God and that God came up with all the laws of the universe, you only introduce the question of "what created God". If you are satisfied to say "God has always existed", why are you not willing to accept that the universe has always existed (in some form or another).

You're trying to argue that anything inherently complex must have been designed, so the same must apply to the designer. Then you create an infinite system of a designer being designed by another designer.

EDIT
You're using circular logic that makes no sense. How is it "self evident" that a creator always existed? Or that this creator always had it's creation? Those ideas are not "self evident" to me. In fact they completely go against logic.
 
By your logic, how could a God intelligent enough to create all the complex laws of the universe "just happen"? By saying the universe was created by God and that God came up with all the laws of the universe, you only introduce the question of "what created God". If you are satisfied to say "God has always existed", why are you not willing to accept that the universe has always existed (in some form or another).

You're trying to argue that anything inherently complex must have been designed, so the same must apply to the designer. Then you create an infinite system of a designer being designed by another designer.

EDIT
You're using circular logic that makes no sense. How is it "self evident" that a creator always existed? Or that this creator always had it's creation? Those ideas are not "self evident" to me. In fact they completely go against logic.
 
By your logic, how could a God intelligent enough to create all the complex laws of the universe "just happen"? By saying the universe was created by God and that God came up with all the laws of the universe, you only introduce the question of "what created God". If you are satisfied to say "God has always existed", why are you not willing to accept that the universe has always existed (in some form or another).

You're trying to argue that anything inherently complex must have been designed, so the same must apply to the designer. Then you create an infinite system of a designer being designed by another designer.

EDIT
You're using circular logic that makes no sense. How is it "self evident" that a creator always existed? Or that this creator always had it's creation? Those ideas are not "self evident" to me. In fact they completely go against logic.
 
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