Crispin Freeman on Mature Animated Storytelling...

When I said CN was getting better I simply meant there are more shows these days that are worth watching such as Chowder and Flapjack. But neither of those shows help Crispin Freeman's case since they're both just silly, goofball children's shows.

CN already seems to have cold feet on how edgy they want Total Drama Island to be (aren't they editing it now?) while Clone Wars is a George Lucas product, who pretty much gets to do whatever he wants in the first place.
 
I thought that I understood where he was coming from. And I agree with him as well. I feel like he's asking for cartoon series to have more depth than just limiting them to just kids. I didn't think he was talking about all cartoon series needing an edge since most of the series he mentioned, Teen Titans and Gargoyles, were action series. Even though I do remember Starfire and Robin having some teen like relationship towards the end of the series, I do see his point about how they don't really act like teenagers. It still surprises me that people thought that show was too violent. I don't think shows like Chowder, Spongebob and other series that are more for comedy purposes really need an edge like he was saying.

Crispin Freeman also made a good point about how so many parents think that their children shouldn't see anything with violence and that its impossible for them to keep that knowledge away from their children. Sure, its likely that that attitude isn't going to change overnight, but I just thought he was expessing his opinion on the matter. At least making that opinion known is better than just brushing off that kind of overprotective attitude that a lot of parents have. It also sounded like he wanted more age appropriate violence, which makes sense since I don't think five year old kids, generally speaking, could handle the same violence an eighteen year old could tolterate. I thought that he made some great points and I did agree with him.
 
In the UK there's an organisation called Save Kids' TV with similar concerns; it was founded by various people from the industry, and has support from figures such as Philip Pullman, Michael Palin and Tony Robinson.

If this video is anything to go by, then the Stateside equivalent is... erm, an angry voice actor in a room full of otaku. Well, it's a start.
 
What we need is a balance; although shows that are meant to be funny and have no consistent plot are very good and all think about shows like GI-JOE, He-man, Megaman, Legend of Zelda, Teenage Robot (my memory sucks.) The characters in these shows go through life threatening situations but never really suffer or change their attitudes to anything or anyone despite the fact they've protected each other from great dangers and risk their own lives but never really contribute it to the future. The villians also never thinking of changing their own ways and methods or show any complicated plans other than "With I shall have the power to rule all!"

However lately I've been seeing how these methods have improved over the years.
Batman TAS - He must cope with protecting those he cares about and also conflicts with a love for a villian (Cat Woman. Also I'm having a hard time remembering some things.)

Ben 10- He learns new secrets of the Omnitrix as his grandpa's past is revealed. Ben also conflicts with relationships against villians who become friends. There was also the evolution of his sister from the normal bystanding bait to a true fighter with the ability to protect those she cares for.

Justice League- Those they swear to protect choose to destroy them and villians like Lex try to take advantage of this fear to nearly destroy the justice league. The show also takes advantage of looking into the individual morals and lives of the members outside of the tower.


(That's the best I can really do I am bad at making an arguement.)


Also NO MORE PUNS!!!
 
Figured as much, though his segway made it sound like he was using it to support his argument on getting girls to read comic books. Though don't Robin and Starfire only hook up in the final Tokyo movie? They were never a couple on the show outside fan shipping and teasing, so it seemed kind of pointless to complain about them not doing "couple things" when they weren't really a couple until the finale.

There was an interesting article on his view of comics on ANN (stemming from his vocal role as Superman), but it has been since taken down, which is unfortunate... for me :sweat:.

I'll admit that statement was more based on the article that ANN took down; but who cares what those groups think? You'll have groups complaining about everything. Mature storytelling is not relative to the target audience. Batman: TAS had plenty of mature and sophisticated storytelling, despite being aimed at kids. Quite a few children's shows do; I think his stance on "people viewing cartoons only for kids is bad" is flawed; while it's unfortunate some people think that way, it's not directly relative to there being mature storytelling. His problems with Teen Titans don't stem from the fact that it's a kids show, they stem from the fact the writers wrote it that way. Kids shows can have sophisticated writing, you just need a writer who's willing to do that. The true problem stems from there being so few choice writers out there (Greg Weisman, Timm/Dini... that's honestly all I can think of), but one could say that about every medium.

In short, yes, I agree it would be nice if people were more open minded about the potential of animation, but I still think his view on the subject (specifically storytelling being relative to target audience) is flawed.
 
There was a huge controversy with New Teen Titans back in 1984, when George Perez drew a suggestive scene of Dick and Kory in bed together. And before that Slade had a sexual relationship with the 16-year-old Terra.
 
I think mature animated storytelling is when you have characters you care about, an engaging plot that develops over time (and helps to develop the characters) and has good, appropriate moralizing, humor and can appeal to most age groups responsibly. If a character acts a certain way, why? If they visit a certain place, why? Mature storytelling needs to make sense and behave as if it's really its own reality, not have random jokes and such. And if there 'must' be songs in it, they need to move with the plot and advance it in some way. So, really, maturity to me doesn't mean sex, drugs, etc. It means that if the animated show features anything to that caliber, it needs to be inserted into the plot tastefully and creatively. That's just my take. :)
 
The Proper term would be mans world..I hate how everyone use "Real world" the "Real" real world would be living out in the wilderness with no technology, no medicine, no modern conveninces whatsoever! & no one in our soicety today could survive that...But When it comes to surviving the Somewhat Absurd, & needlesly Chaotic world of man....The only Things one needs is common sense,logic, wisdom, a moral code, decent Physical/Mental health....and of course a Tazzer!......Man I guess its true most people would be screwed then...Cause theres not that many people that have these things Nowadays.:sweat: :p :evil: (Thankfully I do!:D )
 
This is exactly what I look for. But there are several barriers. Good writing is hard. There's no doubt the popular CSI series is "mature". But I find the stories and characters self-righteous and oh so arrogant. It's not a good idea to present issues beyond emotions that kids can relate too. We'd have the 80's again where shows were about teaching a current view of social justice. "Understand and agree with the group and we all get along". "Guns are bad and only the Government should have them". "Meat is evil". More emotion in a show makes it a better, more interesting show. but they are writing a story. they justify their own outcomes. Maybe they are wrong and suicide bombers don't go to heaven. Kids shouldn't see all of "real world". I dislike that I can't see good writing because kids shouldn't.
 
WHAT?!



It's something of a tightrope to walk. Taking risks means risking alienating the audience at times. I think that a lot of it has to do with playing safe because it's easier to make money.
 
That's it! Right there! THAT'S my beef with the American animation industry. Honestly, is there NO way around this, because it's frustrating as all hell!

There is simply no middle ground to work with. It seems like in order to watch new cartoons and actually ENJOY them, you either have to be 5 (as evidenced by MOST of what's on CN, Nick, and Disney) or you have to be into Adult Swim.

It's the complete opposite end of the spectrum!

There's nothing in-between. Occasionally you'll be fortunate enough to land an Avatar: the Last Airbender or a Justice League Unlimited, but before them the last "serious" cartoon was, what, Gargoyles? Batman Beyond?

As a viewer, a consumer, and an animation enthusiast, I don't need blood, guts, swearing, or toilet humor - I'm talkin' to YOU Adult Swim! I ALSO don't need the current crop of preschool fluff that's just about everywhere I turn today.

Now, I know you guys (networks, that is) have to make cartoons for kids and I get that, I really do, but COME ON! How about some love for the MODERATES? There are more of us than you think. Is our money not as good as theirs?

Somebody gimme an Amen! Or, you know, not. Your call.

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"Hagen's gone; make him stop haunting me!"
 
Ninja Turtles, He-Man, W.I.T.C.H., just to name a few.

Though I agree, kids cartoons don't have to write to the lowest common denominator; as these shows have shown us. I think I was spoiled by these types of shows, though, because I've yet to find a cartoon I turly enjoyed since W.I.T.C.H., other shows just come up short compared to it and have made me very picky. Shows should always be striving to be better than those before it, I always say.
 
While I appreciate that, I would argue that TMNT and He-Man are remakes, not original programs, exactly. Somebody else already did the lion's share of the groundwork, making newer versions of those properties easier to execute and, I would imagine, much less of a risk to the networks.

The powers that be already knew Ninja Turtles and He-Man were successful in their previous incarnations, so it wasn't really what I would call a gamble.

And I also thought the new He-Man and the Masters of the Universe series was way too preachy, what with it's lesson-of-the-day storylines, many of which forcefully and ham-handedly (if that's a word) drove the narratives.

I would also have to point out that W.I.T.C.H. was an Italian cartoon, not an American one. Other countries have more than proven their ability to make serious cartoons; it's America that's bringing up the rear in that department.

So, yeah, they were good, but not original and not American, respectively, which is really what I'm looking for as a viewer.

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"Hagen's gone; make him stop haunting me!"
 
Based off of an Italian comic, animated in France, written by Americans, all made by Disney. :D

And what's wrong with remakes/animated adaptions? The original He-Man and TMNT cartoons were far from mature shows, yet their remakes are well written mature series that the guys in charge chose to make that way.



Yet you sight Gargoyles, Batman Beyond, JLU and Avatar just a few posts up. Two of which are based on and inspired by comics (therefore not original) and one of them takes a lot of imagery and inspiration from Anime and Chinese culture (not American).
 
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