Canada = 51st state?

I'm quoting this exactly as it comes from TIME...

When the crowRAB cross the ranches along and near the border, they discard backpacks, empty Gatorade and water bottles, and soiled clothes. They turn the land into a vast latrine, leaving behind revolting mounRAB of personal refuse and enough discarded plastic bags to stock a Wal-Mart. Night after night, they cut fences intended to hold cattle and horses. Cows that eat the bags must often be killed because the plastic becomes lodged between the first and second stomachs. The immigrants steal vehicles and saddles. They poison dogs to quiet them. The illegal traffic is so heavy that some ranchers, because of the disruptions and noise, get very little sleep at night.

John Ladd Jr., a thoughtful, soft-spoken rancher just outside Bisbee, gives new meaning to the word stoic. He is forced to work the equivalent of several weeks a year to repair, as best he can, all the damage done to his property by never-ending swarms of illegal aliens. "Patience is my forte," he says, "but it's getting lower." The 14,000 acre Ladd ranch, in his mother's family since the 1800's, is right on the border. Ladd and his wife and three sons as well as his father and mother have their homes there. The largely flat, scrub-covered piece of real estate, with its occasional groves of cottonwooRAB, spiny mesquite and clumps of sacaton grass and desert broom, seems to offer few places to hide. But the land is laced with arroyos in which scores of people can disappear from view. Ditches provide trails from the border to Highway 92, a distance of about 3 miles. That is the route that Ladd says 200 to 300 illegals take every night as they enter the U.S. They punch holes in the barbed-wire border fence and then tear up the many fences intended to separate the breeding cattle-Brahmin, Angus, and Hereford-that divide the Ladd land.

Ladd doesn't blame the border patrol, most of whose officers, he says, are doing all they can under the circumstances. Indeed, apprehensions of illegals in Arizona have soared from 9% of the nation's total in 1993 to 51% this year. "I have real heartache for the agents who are really working," he says. "They track down the smugglers, and judges let them off, and they get a free trip back to Mexico, where they can start all over."

On the other side [of the border] are Mexican ranches whose cattle wander onto Ladd's. "I'm up to 215 Mexican cows that I've put back into Mexico," he says. "I've got a dual-citizenship friend-he's Mexican and American-works on this side for Phelps Dodge, but he's got a ranch over at the San Jose Mountain. So I call him, and then he calls the Mexican cattle inspector...Ladd acknowledges that this do-it-yourself cattle diplomacy is "breaking both countries' laws." How so? "In the United States, you're supposed to quarantine and Mexican cattle for 30 days, and they test them for disease and everything else. What the problem is, there isn't enough cattle inspectors to do that, and then they don't have a holding corral anymore to do that."

Why does he spend so much time returning strays? So his counterparts in Mexico will return the favor because some of his cattle amble across the border through the same holes.

And the nightmare scenario: some resident (which could be me) frustrated by the Federal Government's refusal to halt the onslaught will begin shooting the border crossers on his or her property. As a rancher summed up the situation: "If the law can't protect you, what do you do?" Everyone, it seems, is armed, including nurses at the local hospital, who carry sidearms on their way to work out of fear for their safety.



NOW, if you call INS and the police and illegals continue to come on your property and destroy it, and you then put up a sign saying you will shoot any illegal caught on my property after sunset, and you do it, how can the government fault you? Not only do these illegals steal taxpayers' money, they also put others' safety in jeopardy.
 
It might seem that way to look at the constitution but Canada actually uses a lot of conventions that arent written down. Technically the queens representative is meant to be almost like a dictator here but that's not the way it actually works. Also, when Britain declares war we are automatically in a state of war; however we didnt go with Britain to Iraq so i think it's safe to say the connections are pretty much gone.



are you referring to Quebec or do you mean we're connected to France somehow?



I was thinking more along the lines of why would Canadians want anything to do with the United States? With only 1/10 of your population you can guarantee our concerns would be insignificant, we'd probably be raped for our resources, we'd have to take on a gigantic debt, maybe be eligable for a draft if you decide to keep going to war, have to live under the Patriot Act, etc etc
I did an informal survey yesterday and everyone I asked(Canadians) was strongly opposed.
 
You need to get over yourself Amos, and quit with the slandering. I have presented nothing but facts and accurate figures, and I have never manipulated them in any way. We disagree on the conversion, fair enough, but you're calling me a liar and deceitful, I take offense to that.

I'm not interested in entertaining a debate with you until you prove to me that you are mature enough to handle it without resorting to lies and name calling.

O.4% is a small number, no doubt, but when you're dealing with a country's entire population, small numbers can mean a big impact.

0.4% X 294,000,000 = 11,760,000.

That number is not directly relevent to the murder rate statistics in any way other than to simply demonstrate that that 0.4% can equal a lot of people (or murders as it may be).

Waxy
 
Did you actually think I wouldn't check the sources?

You'd have to be pretty brave, not to mention foolish, to post something on a topic like this without checking the sources and your numbers first.

All stats are taken directly from Stats Canada -http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census01/products/highlight/index.cfm

and from the US Census Bureau -
http://www.census.gov/acs/www/Products/index.htm

Thanks to Famous Amos for at least finding the sites and posting the links.

I'll go throught this topic by topic.

Education -

US

Population 25 years and over 184,395,128 184,330,531 184,459,725
Less than 9th grade 11,892,176 11,733,773 12,050,579
9th to 12th grade, no diploma 18,321,443 18,160,724 18,482,162
High school graduate
(including equivalency) 54,954,343 54,691,370 55,217,316
Some college, no degree 37,407,246 37,215,920 37,598,572
Associate degree 12,882,642 12,770,076 12,995,208
Bachelor's degree 31,138,178 30,901,997 31,374,359
Graduate or professional degree 17,799,100 17,617,274 17,980,926

Percent high school graduate or higher 83.6 83.5 83.8
Percent bachelor's degree or higher 26.5 26.3 26.7

So by the converse, the percent that have no high school equals ~16.4%


Name
Level of Educational Attainment

No HS HS Trade College Univer
Canada 22.7% 23.9% 12.9% 17.9% 22.6% 100.0%
NFLD 35.0% 15.8% 21.5% 13.8% 13.9% 100.0%
PEI 28.9% 20.3% 15.6% 18.3% 16.9% 100.0%
NS 26.4% 18.2% 17.4% 17.8% 20.2% 100.0%
NB 29.2% 24.2% 13.8% 16.7% 16.2% 100.0%
Quebec 24.4% 25.4% 12.6% 15.9% 21.6% 100.0%
Ontario 20.6% 24.4% 11.0% 19.3% 24.7% 100.0%
Manitoba 28.4% 22.5% 13.1% 16.3% 19.7% 100.0%
SK 28.3% 21.8% 16.0% 15.6% 18.3% 100.0%
Alberta 21.8% 22.7% 15.3% 18.7% 21.4% 100.0%
B.C. 19.4% 24.2% 13.8% 18.7% 23.9% 100.0%
Yukon 16.5% 21.4% 18.0% 20.7% 23.4% 100.0%
NWT 25.1% 20.2% 17.1% 18.2% 19.4% 100.0%
Nunavut 38.2% 20.2% 13.1% 16.8% 11.9% 100.1%


Looks like Canada is a little higher, somewhere around 23%.

However, depending on the stats, we're either at 23% or ~40% with a bachelor's or greater compared to the US at 26%. Our college system is slightly different than that in the US, thus separation of college vs. university.

Overall, slight advantage USA.

Employment/Unemployment.

EMPLOYMENT STATUS in the USA

Population 16 years and over
218,256,211 218,203,094 218,309,328
In labor force 144,022,380 143,804,029 144,240,731
Civilian labor force 143,374,440 143,155,405 143,593,475
Employed 132,422,387 132,198,493 132,646,281
Unemployed 10,952,053 10,847,697 11,056,409
% Unemployed 7.6 7.6 7.7
Armed Forces 647,940 603,491 692,389
Not in labor force 74,233,831 74,019,099 74,448,563

In Canada -

Unemployment Unemployment rate
change %change
Canada 1,235.5 1,246.0 0.8 7.2 7.2 0.0NFLD 39.9 42.8 7.3 15.0 16.2 1.2
PEI 8.8 8.8 0.0 11.2 11.3 0.1
Nova Scotia 41.3 42.9 3.9 8.4 8.8 0.4
New Brunswick 39.3 41.7 6.1 10.0 10.5 0.5
Quebec 330.6 324.1 -2.0 8.2 8.0 -0.2
Ontario 466.9 465.3 -0.3 6.8 6.8 0.0
Manitoba 33.7 34.9 3.6 5.6 5.7 0.1
Saskatchewan 26.8 27.6 3.0 5.2 5.4 0.2
Alberta 85.1 85.8 0.8 4.7 4.7 0.0
British Columbia 163.3 172.1 5.4 7.3 7.7 0.4

Looks like a draw to me. Not sure where you got your numbers.

Anyhoo, I'll address the rest tomorrow. Home time.

Waxy
 
Current Account in generall terms is a indicator of how much money is leaving the country to pay for gooRAB and SERVICES and how much is entering the country. It is to my knowledge an expansion on the trade deficiet which normally only includes material gooRAB.

To my (nonexpert) knowledge the US has been funding its economic growth and activity on foreign money. This would normally lead to a slow decline in its economic wealth. Just ask Argentina about what foreign debt and trade deficiets do to a country
 
We have such an unhealthy relationship with our neighbors to the south. It goes both ways. It's true they sneak in, but we certainly aren't going to improve anything by demonizing these people. Most of them live in abject poverty. International law is pretty meaningless to an uneducated man or woman who just wants to provide for their family. Whoever suggested sniping them at the border is one sick sadist. Once upon a time America was a beacon because we were better than tactics like that.

I agree that people need to come over legally. However, how that happens varies GREATLY depending on what country you are coming from. My dad and I were in the same spot some years ago. He was engaged to a woman from Finland and I was engaged to a man from Mexico. My father was able to bring his bride over in a matter of months, with plenty of friendly help from the INS and his fiancee was allowed to come to the US as a visitor at any time.

It took me three years of paperwork. Including six months where the INS "lost" everything and wanted me to start over (until my senator intervened - and AHA the paperwork was found). I had to travel to Juarez - TWICE and deal with horrible, mean and rude immigration workers - and the border. The US office on the Mexican side of the border didn't even have doors on the bathrooms or keep them clean.

During these three years my fiance was not allowed to come here as a tourist, even though he had a son here.

We make it near impossible for Mexicans to even travel here to visit frienRAB and family and how they are treated at the border is awful. I have also traveled many times by car and plane in and out of Canada. US Customs and Border patrol on North is vastly different. Personel are polite and offices are clean. Plus tourism between the US and Canada is pretty open. Not so south.

You mentioned damage done by illegals coming in. Yet we do damage, too. Americans travel to Mexico in droves, build resorts, and buy up property. This can boost their economy, true, but far too many US owned sweat shops are down there. They are called Maquiladoras. They have existed on the border since the 60s "Border Industriazation Plan" and are now everywhere due to NAFTA. Companies come in and employ Mexicans for pennies a day blatantly ignoring US and Mexican employement and environmental law. The abuses are huge, and face it, Mexico does not have the resources to fight corporate America.

For the record I have seen some of these factories myself and have heard first-hand stories (I am fluent in Spanish and lived near the Mexican border for many years).

No, they should not come over illegally and anyone coming into our country should have proper documentation. But there is no excuse for the snotty abuse we heap on Mexico.

I wonder how we would feel if they treated us, the way we treat them when we hit Club Med in Acapulco.

By the way - Canada is AWESOME. I travel to Toronto at least once a year and Vancouver every couple of years. I have also been through southern Alberta, Manitoba and Saskatchewan (sp?) - and I have been to Montreal.

By the way my best friend lives in Toronto - a city of 3 million and she does not wait for months for medical care or surgery. Ye-gaRAB. They DO have health plans, the government just ensures that everyone's basic healthcare is provided for. Oh No HOW HORRIBLE. Caring for your fellow country man's health. Can't have any of THAT here. It's every man for himself in the US. The country that doesn't need ANYONE and never gives credit.

Not that I don't love my country. I do. I just hate it when people start demonizing another place that does it differently.

Anyway - I think both the US and Canada can just stay independent countries.

And I agree that Puerto Rico would the next logical state, if the purta Ricans ever agree to whether or not it's what they want.
 
For the record , New Zealand and Australia are the 51st and 52nd state respectively. Canada is just too good to be part of any other country, it can stand on its own very well, thank you !
 
Here are a few interesting figures for yah (I am Canadian just to make that clear).

1) Manitoba Hydro has the lowest electricity rates in North America (I grew up here till I was 18 we use Hydro dams and wind power - completely renewable energy) MB Hydro only serves 1 000 000 customers and sells a ton of power to the Northern States. Along with British Columbia Power selling to California. So if we cut off our power supply to the USA you would be in the dark.

2) This next fact comes rate out of a CNN Presents documentary (on are dependancy on oil) Alberta Canada has enough oil available to serve the entire worlRAB oil neeRAB for 100 years.

3) Out of all the world's fresh water Canada has the most fresh water (not quite sure - but we do have lots - eg. Great Lakes)

Now there is some hope: we have a conservative gov. in office now. More liked by the USA than Paul Martin was. Not a copy of Bush though. But thanks to him (not being sarcastic here, i support this move) we have soldiers commited to Afgahnistan till 2010.
Ok i am not trying to got to pro Canada here - everyone is saying we need the USA and the USA doesn't need us - so I thought I would bring up those facts. The USA does need Canada too. Its a 2 way street not a 1 way. Anyways we are very much like typical US citizens. We are influenced by US media a lot (we have CBS, ABC, FOX, NBC, PBS, CW, CNN, Bravo, MTV, etc.) We have no unique identity - we are bombarded by US media. You'll find most of Western Canadians are a lot like the people in the USA. Just watch out for over the top liberals in Ontario and the French in Quebec (no here is something that could happen - hopefully - Quebec seperates from Canada - this is something I would support)
 
No I don't live on the border, but I have a large amount of family who owns farms and cares for them (in North Carolina, South Carolina, and Texas). I have seen the dedication it takes to keep a farm running and in order. And my family would not let 200-300 illegals come on their land everyday and tear it up. Neither would anyone who values their propery. And if signs or fences don't deter people, a gun and bullets surely will. Try it and I'm sure you'll see.

I don't have any urge to shoot people. But when I work hard and people undermine everything I do by tearing up my stuff, I am going to stop it. Whether it is an electric fence with 1000 volts of power, attack dogs, alligators, or bullets, rest assured I will use them.
 
The reason that we have a bad relationship with Mexico is because they refuse to abide by the laws we have set for people trying to come to this country. It is the same for every country. Abide by the laws, and you will be treated farily. Refuse to abide by them and try to sneak in, I have absolutely no mercy or compassion for what may happen to you. Mexicans' poverty in Mexico is not our problem. We have our own unemployment problems here in the US, and before we start offering foreigners all the jobs, I think we should focus more on our own citizens. It makes more sense because not only does it help our people get jobs, but it helps our economy because they will spend the money domestically. However, Mexicans working in the US illegally send $15 billion back to Mexico each year, so we get shafted twice on that; we give available jobs to foreigners, and they spend the money we give them outside of our country. I said if I owned a farm on the border and illegals were tearing up my property every night, you're damn right I'll shoot them, after I put up signs saying, "Si veo a algun Mexicano en mi tierra, voy a pegarle un tiro." or "If I see a Mexican on my property, I am going to shoot them." Fair enough warning to me, and it's in both languages! Maybe you don't comprehend the destruction of property that goes on. These illegals are not only breaking the law by hopping a fence to get here, but they are destroying people's land, animals, and littering.



That's how it should be done. If Mexicans want to work here, apply for a visa and become a citizen. I have no problem with that, and I actually encourage that. Then you can pay taxes just like the other 180 million working Americans. If you want to work here and live here, pay taxes.



I'm sorry to hear that.



I'm sorry to hear that.



If you have a valid visa you can travel here whenever you want, provided you're not a terrorist. It takes a US citizen about a month to go through all the paper work to get a passport. The average wait time for someone from Mexico to get a non-immigrant visa is 30 days. Therefore, getting a US passport and visa are about the same thing. Border patrol isn't as bad on the Canadian border because 3 million Canadians don't flood the borders each year and steal jobs, tear up people's property, etc. Maybe if the illegal Mexicans who came here showed some sense of respect for people's property, obeyed our laws, and paid taxes I would have a different outlook, but until that happens I won't.



We don't throw tons of trash in Mexican farmers' land, we don't tear up Mexican farmers' fences and let their prized cattle out, we don't steal 56,000 cars in Tijuana each year, we don't murder Mexican nuns, and we don't cause their government billions of dollars in damage by us being there. When we go to Mexico, we are helping their economy by flooding it money. How come when Mexicans commit crimes here, they just get sent back to Mexico? But why do US citizens who commit crimes in Mexico get locked up for years? Sweat shops are also in Taiwan, India, and China. When we open hotels and resorts in Mexico, we are providing Mexicans jobs which they couldn't have if we weren't there, and we pay them better than the Mexican government's minimum wage.



Ok. I speak Spanish too.



What abuse do we heap on Mexico...well paying jobs, free subsidized housing, health care, and education at the taxpayers' expense? And what do they give us in return? More trouble than we already have.



But we go there legally. We don't just send 3 million people there illegally.



Thanks for the information.



If you want optional surgery, then you have to wait longer than in the US. Think about it...if the government is paying for your health care, why wouldn't you take advantage of free breast implants, or laser eye surgery? In the US, if you want this you have to pay for it. It is not my job to pay for someone else's health care, schooling, or anything. I work my ass off to provide for myself and my family, not Javier's who doesn't pay taxes. Why should I pay for an alcholic who decides to abuse his body, or an obese person who chooses to eat everything in sight?



I just demonize people who disobey the law, and then have the nerve to tear up people's property in the country in which they illegally immigrated to, and at the same time expect taxpayers to pay for their health care and housing, while they don't pay a dime in taxes!!



Me too.
 
How come the Head of State of Canada is the Queen of England? You are right it is not the 51st state of the USA it is still a British colony. Economically though they can not survive without the US.
 
The head of state is the Queen just out of force of habit. It is kind of hard to give up a habit when it has existed for almost 300 years , anyway it sure beats the heck out of having a King Chirac (like germany).

Economically they can survive without anybody because Canada has so much of natural resources, it does not need anybody but instead just choses to trade with fair partners (which excludes europe) .We are kind of choosy about who we trade with.
 
You did these mysterious calculations that no one knows where you got or how you did it and now you can't reproduce your work or even point out the statistics you used??? Anyway I'll check back tomorrow for how you manipulated them. By the way, I live in the US
 
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