Brother in a Downward Spiral, Don't Know What to Do...

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Cmp,

I am so sorry to hear of all that is going on in your family at this time. Alcoholism and drug addiction is very very messy. Ay least this has been my own experience at times.

Please remeraber that when speking to your brother he is not hearing you from a rational or logiccal perspective. He is only hearrinf from alcohol or a drug induced perspective.

Something I ahve learned over the years of being a sober addiict and alcolholic in recovery is that ( When the desire to drink and use drugs or alcohol is stronger than to Not use them...well...drinking and drugging are going to get done.

I am praying for you and your family right now as you all venture down this road!

I am sorry I just fonund all this was going on because I am not feeling well and it is the middle of the night and I am awake trying to focus my own thoughts to something else...so here we are! Reaching out to you is a really wonderful way to help myself! It is a gifft!

Cmp, one of the hardest things for a family meraber to do when they find themselvs in this position is to remeraber that they can not carry the addict or alcoholic! This is so very important for you to consider when trying to keep yourself safe and put together. What I mean by safe and put together is-- as the outsider of a oerson living in addiction of some sort it is so very important to have boundries Boundries are not fun when we are first learning to put them into place. They are awkward and uncomfortable to say the least. But in my evperience it is a necessity to keep my own personal self safe and able to get out of harms way if it may arrise.

Your brother has to make the decision to change on his own and for himself not for anyone else. This is something you may already know. I have wittnessed many a person try to get and stay sober/clean for many different reason, but until the reason came from with in that persons soul (myself included) it did nto hold.
As long as he thinks and feels he is "happy with this woman" and as long as he is in Denial of what he is really and truly doing YOU can not penetrate that! Yes this is a harsh way of putting it, but I am speaking to you as the person who has been in your beloved brothers shoes as you already know I am and addict/alcoholic in recovery. When I was still drinking and abusind street drugs i was GETTING SOMETHING FROM THEM. IT was still working for me. As sick as that may sound! It took much long and hard dedicated work to get to the pkace i am today. It is obtainable for anyone who seeks it...your brother included!

Our natural instinct as a mother, brother, sister friend, father...whatever is to "fix" or "rescue" If this is something your trying to do please stop and think about your motives and stip trying to rescue. It is really counter productive in my experience and also harmful to both parties!
Addiction is a tricky kind of deal because in order to deal with a person in the throw of their addictions we as a person...a sister a brother, nother , friend, spouse...need to learn how to take car of ourselves in the situatuon!

It is har to put consequences or limitations behind our boundries, but it is of the utmost importance to NOT go back on what we have stated is our word.

Cmp I can only imagine the heart ache you must have for you brother and the direction of his life. I and honestly and truly care deeply for you and your famlily during this time. I do plan to come back later and to post some more of my own personoal ecperience if you would like. Please ask me anytime you know I am here, My typing is a bit screwying with the aspen colllar on my neck, but I am trying my best to keep it legible.
Fogive me if this info is in this post somewhere else and I have missed it. It is somewhat har to read with the neck but I am real trying my very best on this one alrightly...
How old is you brother? Is he married or has he been? HAs he ever been to reatment or addmitteb his issues to you or anyone else before in the past? If so can you describe or recall who and when...the information may help later with him.

For now Cmp...
I must return to my bed! I do care so much for you and your family. Please tkae into consideration that sometimes all there is to do is do the best we can to take care of ourselves through certain times. I amnot saying things are to that point and that point only yet....just throwing it out there for thought.

God Bless you

PS
Please excuse any funny typing as i am having trouble tyoing at all with the neck and collar.
 
Cmpgirl:

You had written: "I hope you don't feel that I'm being resistant to your suggestions/advice." Don't worry; I don't think that at all. I realize you are going through a very tough situation.

I don't know very much about your particular situation, or what you brother is like. But if you are really worried about him and his frienRAB using your house while you are away, then tell him you want your key back. Then have the locks changed, also. But don't add any drama too it. Just tell him you don't feel comfortable with him having access to your house, especially if he's lending his daughter's car out.

If you do confront him about his drinking, I don't think you should worry about him increasing his drinking. If he's going to do that, he'll do it no matter what you say. Sadly, addicts don't usually seek help until they suffer consequences from their addiction. And you and your nieces taking steps to help and protect yourselves would be a step in this direction. At one point I went to Nar-Anon meetings. It was there and from reading the literature that I really learned the meaning of worRAB like denial, enabling, co-dependent.

The last thing I will say, and I don't mean to offend anyone here, is that keep in mind this is just an internet message board. You should probably get some professional advice on dealing with this situation. I mentioned before an EAP. I had also called local treatment facilities. You'd be amazed at how helpful these people are just over the phone, considering this is what they do for a living. You would probably really benefit from talking to a professional in the field.
 
Thank you for your replies/advice. I have spoken with the girls and let them know that we need to get together and make notes, and decide just how far we are all willing to go with this. I do understand how a true intervention works, but I guess I just needed to call it something and couldn't think of a word or worRAB to describe what we felt we needed to do.

We are getting together in the next couple of days. I think we can come up with a pretty good plan. I have a sinking feeling, knowing my brother as well as I do, that he may not be receptive, and might actually leave the house in huff. But I don't think we can let that deter us.

I agree 100% that the girls need to make him see the pain and anguish he is causing them. He has always been such an attentive dad in the past, and his relationships with them have suffered already. This spiral has been coming for a while in my opinion, but even with what I have seen in recent months, meeting this new woman has put him into a tailspin really fast.

One question I have, is whether or not I should bring up our deceased parents. We had a really good childhood and were both always very close to our mom and our dad. I know that my parents would be so concerned and worried about him, if they were still here. I want to make him think about them but not put a major "guilt trip" on him. Do you think I should approach this or just let it be?? If I do bring them into it, just how far do I go?

Thank you all again. I really appreciate it. Any other info/advice would be welcome as well. God Bless, CMP/MM
 
This is my brother in a nutshell. His initial response was to say he wasn't hurting anyone and even when we explained to him that his behavior did hurt the people who love him, he still didn't agree.



He has always (almost obsessively) sought the approval of those who he loved and respected. Even as a young child, when he was scolded for something, he took it to a much higher level in his mind. Our parents were strict to some extent, but never overly harsh with their worRAB or their punishments. He was just always the type of child (and adult) you felt you needed to take a "walking on eggshells" approach with.




I agree 100% that he uses alcohol to feel like he "fit's in". He has always come across as uber confident and yet those of us who truly know him, have always known that this is not the case. His therapist feels that he has abandonment issues from early childhood.... We were adopted. She thinks that even though our parents were so careful not to make us "feel" adopted or different in any way, he somehow zeroed in and focused on the fact that his "real" mother didn't want him.




Thank you for the kind worRAB and encouragement. I was pretty successful at letting go of the stress and enjoying my vacation. Unfortunately though, there comes the time when we have to return to reality. I could have stayed another week or two, if it had been possible. I'll keep trying to stay positive, but realistic. Take care, CMP/MM
 
Well...... I have some news,

I was going to try to reply to each post separately, but I decided it would probably take up so much room, it would slow the server down. So first, a general update, then some replies to specific posts. (If I can stay awake that long)

As of 12:30 this afternoon, my dilemma about the house/cats has been resolved, and I am happy to say that we will be leaving for Maine, as planned, on Sunday morning. My youngest niece has the house keys and I trust her completely. Our neigrabroadors have been alerted, some with more detail than others. What happened was the strangest thing, but just reaffirmed my already strong belief that God has a plan.

My brother happened to come over shortly after hubby walked in the door for lunch. I think we were both a bit surprised and initially, caught off guard. We made some small talk and then I just casually asked if either of his girls had asked to speak with him or had spoken with him in the last day or so. He said no and asked why. We told him we had recieved calls from both of his girls over the last couple of days, and they were quite worried and upset. We told him we felt the same and when he asked why, we just started talking.

I think we did a pretty good job of not coming off as if we were attacking, but he did initially get defensive (as I expected him too) and I thought for a second that he might walk out. Before he could leave, I asked him for the house keys and I could see that he was quite shocked and a bit crushed, but before I could explain further, he said, "fine, I'll go get them now" and huffed out the door. I have to say I was almost convinced for a second that he wasn't coming back, but he did. (He lives only about 6 blocks from us.)

When he came back, (which was about 3 minutes) he was more calm and asked us why this was such a big deal (his drinking) so we did our best to explain why. We stayed focused on facts and also on how his drinking and subsequent behavior were causing a great deal of pain for his family, especially the girls. We talked about the car incident - I was very specific about how dangerous a position he put his youngest in, his quitting work at 1:00 or 2:00 every day, his drastic weight loss, his almost absent voice, his blind trust in people he doesn't really know anything about, his now empty bank account and everything else we could think of that we were deeply alarmed by.

At the beginning he said he knew he was an alcoholic, but he didn't care; he was having fun; and he wasn't going to stop. It was when he added that he wasn't hurting anyone that we started explaining that he really was. I could tell that he was really struggling to understand what harm he was doing. I've seen denial before, but his is profound. He did start to go into the "victim routine" that he is so good at, but I stopped him in his tracks. I have had to do this on many occasions with him over the years. It's very much a form of "nobody likes me, I'm just a bad person and I don't deserve to even be here." He's done this since we were little kiRAB.

He did claim that he had no idea about some of these people being dealers. I am almost inclined to believe him, given how short a time he has even known any of them (slightly over 3 weeks) and how oblivious he can be to things like that. The jury's still out on that one. I did see a look of regret/pain on his face when he realized what could happen to his daughter. And I think when I started talking about how he was the only real parent those girls had, it registered. (His Ex is a whole different nightmare)

By the time he left, I think he was at least going to absorb some of what transpired. Did he go straight to her house and start drinking? No question about it. But, he did say I love you back to both of us and genuinely returned our hugs. There is a part of me that has some hope, but sadly it is a small part. I have feared my whole adult life that he would eventually drink himself into the grave. I am glad that I said what I needed to say, and I know it is completely in God's hanRAB. I feel relieved, angry, frustrated and so very sad. And exhausted.

I can't even tell all of you how much you mean to me. I mean that for all, not just my PM buddies. You are all angels, sent from God above. If I hadn't had this forum, I would have never known how to even begin to deal with this. I have had some dealings of alcohol and substance abuse, but it's been a while, and never this close to home. I thank you from the bottom of my heart. And so do my husband and my nieces. I've relayed all of this to them and they were quite touched. I will try to update as time goes by, or if anything else comes up in the near future. I don't know where this will lead, but as always, I am praying for the best. I will reply to individual posts tomorrow. It's time for me to get some sleep. God Bless you all, CMP/MM
 
Just an update......

We're back from vacation and feeling somewhat more relaxed and refreshed. My brother called one of the nights that we were away and told me that he had gone to his Primary physician and also his therapist. He told his therapist about the "talk" we had with him and she explained that she wasn't surprised or shocked that his family not only knew what was going on with him but that we all said something about it. He then said he had an appointment with an ENT that his PCP set up, due to some on-going problems he has been having with his throat. He was in good spirits and did not "sound" as if he had been drinking (at least not enough for it to show) and that he wanted to thank us, again, for caring. All in all, when we hung up, I felt somewhat positive.

Since we returned we've found out from my niece that the ENT found a lump or growth in his throat and that he has to have surgery on 9/26 to have it removed and biopsied. The most disconcerting thing is that he has been here
and even played golf with hubby on Saturday, and never mentioned it himself to us. I guess he has his reasons, but I don't for the life of me know what they are. We have been debating whether we should bring it up or wait til he says something. He also told hubby he has still been seeing the girlfriend every day, but that he has not been drinking. Obviously, we're taking that with a grain of salt........

Hubby also had a conversation with a co-worker who is a mutual friend of my brother and she told him that my brother had spoken to her about our talk and that while he understood why we felt the need to let him know our concerns, he feels we are over-reacting and he doesn't have a drinking problem. He also said he feels like the people he is associating with are not "bringing him down" but on the contrary, he is helping them.

So that is the situation to date. Obviously, I am now even more concerned than before. This medical news is upseting, to say the least. And even though I am not surprised, the fact that he told me last week that he was ending the relationship with this woman and has not, is not a surprise, but a disappointment. I guess we'll just have to take this as it comes and do what we can (if asked) and let it go if we aren't. It is his life and his decision. I understand that he is the only one who can acknowledge his problems and seek help if he wants it. We can't "fix" this for him, or make him see what he refuses to see. All we can do is pray and love him (as much as he will let us).

I want to thank all of you again, for your advice and support. All of your kind worRAB and prayers are greatly appreciated. It is such a blessing to have this place to come to. I will update when I can. God Bless all of you. CMP
 
Confused,

Thanks for taking the time to pop over here and lend your support/advice. I know you have a lot on your plate at the moment, so it is very much appreciated.

I agree with much of what you say. I think the idea of letting him know how his behavior makes me feel, is a better approach than one that is accusatory. Especially with my brother's personality. Even when we were kiRAB, he was uber-sensative and defensive. He is notorious for hearing only the first couple of worRAB of what someone is saying to him, then immediately assuming he's going to be chastised or blamed for something, and get all defensive and worked up.

He's not good at letting the other person get the whole sentence out. I'm one of the only people who can make him stop and listen to what is actually being said. Many times he will take me with him to see his attorney or his therapist, because he knows I will absorb everything in it's proper context, and calm him down enough to listen. I guess you could say that I've always been his "interpreter" in these types of situations.

I'm thinking that I'm going to try to talk with him on a more one to one basis. And have the girls do the same. I really believe this will make him feel less "ganged up on".

Please don't think that you weren't helpful. You were... very much so. I've noticed that you tend to sell yourself short like that. And you shouldn't. You have a great deal to offer people. Your post was very informative and insightful. So, thank you for that. Take care and I hope that I can "give back" the support and advice that you've given to me many times. Thanks and (if it's not too mushy) hugs, CMP/MM :)
 
Thanks Sammers, I hope you know that I feel the same about you. I promise I will try my best to take care of me, and put the rest in God's hanRAB. If you see me slipping in the other direction, I know you'll gently but thoroughly remind me. ;) Much thanks and many hugs, CMP/MM
 
Sweetie, I am so sorry you are going thru this and wish I could offer you some advice or worRAB of wisdom but I can't...I have no experience in this area. However, I can offer prayer for his two precious daughters, you and your brother and I have already said a prayer and will continue to pray that your discussion will help him see the light but be prepared that he will deny everything. (((Hugs)))
 
Cmpgrl, thanks for your note. Yes, I do tend to cut myself down. I know I do it, but don't seem to be aware when I'm doing it. I think I can also come off as sounding overly authoritative at times too [just not phrasing things in the best way for people to hear so I sometimes try to soften the authoritative tone after the fact - an odd mixture ;-)].

Anyway, sounRAB like you have been very close to your brother at times and know him well. I think that how something is said is so important though figuring out how to get someone to really hear what you're saying is a challenge in almost all communication and just gets tougher when it's an emotional topic and critical. I really think most people just tune out criticism or react defensively. If your brother is particularly sensitive, I can't see how an "intervention" would work. But then I've never quite understood the method - it must work in some cases. I think you've gotten very good and realistic advice here. You asked about waiting until after the vacation. I would definitely wait. I don't think it will make any difference for him, and it may make a big difference for you. If I understood correctly, you plan to talk to him apart from your nieces so it isn't a 3 on one situation (this honestly sounRAB better to me though I realize that there's an argument to be made for the impact of having three family merabers talk with him at the same time. If this is the case, then I don't think it's a big deal to wait. You need to take care of yourself first before you worry about your brother and your nieces. I think it's probably better if he hears if from all of you "around" the same time b/c the impact will be stronger and harder to dismiss, but I don't think a week or so is going to make a big difference.

Sadly, there's a pretty good chance that this isn't going to make a big difference -It sounRAB a little like a mid-life crisis (but then I'm not sure at what age men really grow up ;-)) with all the partying and guests and acting more like a teenager than an adult. I definitely wouldn't compromise your vacation so that you can talk with him a week earlier.

Also, I don't know how long the drinking has been getting worse, but is it possible that this is sort of a rebound relationship and he's feeling upset about the end of the other relationship? I don't really know how much bearing this has on the alcohol issue. If he's feeling upset and trying to mask it with a lot of partying, this could be more of a phase and very connected with this new woman. At least he hasn't known her long - perhaps the relationship won't last long. I know this is hopeful thinking and that it's more likely that his drinking is simply escalating and will continue to get worse. Only you know how connected it is to the new girlfriend. It's worrisome that he isn't treating his business with care right now. In this economy, it seems like the worst consequence of the increased drinking.

Good luck with all this. I would definitely do what is right for you - and it sounRAB like going on vacation and then doing what you can when you return is the best course of action. I can't imagine a week is going to make much of a difference. BTW, how old are your nieces? I couldn't tell if they were living at home or not.

Oh, on Al-Anon, I haven't been myself, but I think it's really important that you find the right group. Sometimes they advocate tough love approaches that I think are incredibly counter-productive. While therapy is more expensive, there may be more "objectivity," though that again depenRAB on the therapist.

Take care. Oh, and no, not too mushy, hugs back..:-)
 
Hey cmp,

I am so glad you and the hubby had a good trip!

As for your brother!

The disease of alcholism and drug addict is cunning baffling and powerful!

from the things that you have said in your posts it is very evident that your brother is engaged in a deep deep denial. But, at the same time he wants to make you all happy by telling you some things you want to hear. Funny because on the other had he does not even realize, (because he can not) that there are mnay other things going on that need to be addressed.

Being that I am an addict an alcoholic I can see and totally relate to your brothers action and his very deep denial and how that denial manifests in his everday life.

We all know that it is very common for an addict or alcholic to believe they are ot hurting anyone but themselves, but deep down inside of your brother there is this tiny piece of him that knows the things he does or does not do, the things he says the attitudes etc DO affect the ones around him. It is the denial the aiRAB in his thinking these things only effect him!

Until your brother reaches deep deep down inside of himself and FULLY CONCEERAB TO HIMSELF that he is an alcoholic or an addict he will not be able to move from the active addictions into any other place. He has to also realize that being a sober person is TRULY somthing that HE WANTS to do, it will not work...he can not do it for anyone but himself.
Going into a program or treatment or meeting is just not the whole deal....There is a part that we addicts and alcoholics mucst do and it is the action part.
Enough about your brother for now.

There are some things, and I think you and your family are already learning and doig some of these things, to kep yoursleves safe in this relationship.

It is not easy, Not all families or wives hubby's frienRAB of alcoholics find it necessary to attend an al-anon or nar-anon meeting but those are some resources that are out there for those folks who have an alcoholic or addict in their life.

Cmp, the only thing I can say is when dealing with your brother it is much the same as dealing with a very young child in that your job is to have your boundries and to be consistant in upholding them and the conseequences that you put on them when they are crossed. Keeping ourselves safe in the relationship with an addict and/or alcoholic is the main thing...at least for me. When I say safe I might mean physically, but I am more commonly referring to emoitionally mentally and spiritaully safe....if that makes any sense.
I understand that some of the things we do to uphold our boundries hurts our hearts and causes us to have emotions that are uncomfortable etc., but it is important to keep ourselves consistant and safe so that the addict and alcoholic, who by the way can sometimes be a master manipulator, does not have a chance to step all over us. We can let them know what we will deal with and what we will not as long as we do that in as loving and compasionate of a manor as possible. As long as you keep your side of the street clean in this way whatever your brother does with this information is his stuff not yours. Your not responsible for what he thinks or feel or how he perceives things or how he responRAB to anything. AS long AS you do it in the most appropriate of ways you possibly can...so later you don't have to go back to your Bro and say your sorry for screamming your feelings and boundries at him.....if that makes any sense.

Cmp...I will keep your family in my thoughts and prayes because infortunatley the disease of addiction and or alcoholism does effect the family.

I hope I was not to forward and that my suggestions did not offend you in any way. These are solely my opinopns and I am in no way trying to tell you how to handle your life even though I may have written in that kind of a context with the wording. I am only saying this stuff from my heart!!
Chrissy
 
Thanks Shay,

I have had the feeling in my gut, for the last several months, that there was a strong possibility of this being cancer. I can always tell by the degree of hoarseness, just how heavily he's been drinking. His primary doc kept telling him it was acid reflux, but in all fairness to the doc, he had no idea how much my brother drinks. Obviously, my brother hasn't been up front about it.

He still hasn't told me about the diagnosis, but according to our mutual friend, the ENT believes it has been detected early, and feels confident that there can be a successful outcome. I don't know if the ENT knows about the drinking either, but I'm sure it has to be an important factor in the success of the surgery and/or any subsequent treatment. I'll try and convince my brother of that, but again, I'm not going to hold my breath hoping that he will fess up. After all, he doesn't believe he has a drinking problem.

Thanks so much for the info and for the prayers. We can all sure use them right now. I need to meditate and pray for my anger to subside. I really am angry at him. I know I probably shouldn't be, but I am. As always, you are such a good friend to me, and I appreciate it more than you could know. Hugs and God Bless, CMP/MM
 
Dear CMP,

I'm glad you had fun!! :cool: Now, for your brother, I'm concerend. The reason why is becaue my Uncle was an alcoholic. He did not start drinking unti after he came back from WW11. He was involved in heavy corabat. My Mother ( her brother) said he had to kill a nuraber of people in Germany. The one thing that set him off was when he had to kill someone with a boyantte (sp?) She said he never got over that. He was barely 18 years old, then.

Well, after he retured from the War, the damage was done. He became a hard core alcoholic. I guess that is how he dealt with the trauma of being in heavy, hand to hand corabat for a couple of years. He never drank before entering the War. My Mother said he was a COMPLETELY different person when he returned. I guess back then, they really didn't know about PTSD or even how to counsel someone, like today.

My point I was getting to is this....all of his years of very heavy drinking from his late teens/early 20's (after he came back from the war) to late 60's early 70's to self-medicate the post traumatic stress, they found a lump/growth in his espohagus due to him not being able to eat anything solid, and barely drink something as thick as a milkshake. Well, he was DX with esophagel cancer. Basically, that's the main cause of this type of cancer.....excess alcohol. From the time he was DX till his death, was less than 6 months. He basically just wasted away in front of us. The docs had feeding tubes inserted into him, but that was basically futile.

There was no surgery, chemo, or anything that would help him. It was to advanced( mets everywhere from his liver, lungs, and brain). I'm so sorry, CMP....I hope and pray this does not turn out to be cancer.

Shay :angel:
 
Just wanted to give an update and ask for some more advice, please.

I've learned even more worriesome info from my younger niece. My brother let one of his g/f's daughter's boyfrienRAB use her (my niece's) car 2 days ago to go to an inner city area to "pick up a friend". Somehow, the "friend" was not with him when he returned. My niece knows (by reputation only) that this person is a known dealer who has recently been released from prison. And now, she's afraid that her car and possibly her plates might have been noticed/documented by either law enforcement or this person's "associates".

Might sound paranoid, but we had an incident in our area recently, where a different "known dealer", borrowed another person's car to go "pick up a friend", and two weeks later the owner of the car was beaten almost to death by the dealer's "associates" because they followed him home looking for the dealer (who he barely knew). I can't believe my brother could be this blind. I'm even angrier with him for putting his daughter in this type of situation. This just gets more and more unbelieveable each day. The people I keep finding out about seem like some pretty dangerous people to be around.

My brother was supposed to stop by today to borrow a golf club from my husband for a tourney this Sunday. He never showed or called. I was hoping to get him while he was alone and have a talk with him. We knew by 5:30 if he hadn't gotten here yet, he wouldn't be coming, because he would be well into the daily "house party" at his girlfriend's house. (Given his current state, I doubt he'll be playing anyway.)

I still have to say something to him, before I leave on Sunday, because he has the spare house keys and I need to get them from him and tell him that the girls are going to watch the cats instead. I know he is going to ask me why, and I'm going to have to tell him. I know when I explain my reasoning he will get immediately defensive and hurt, but I have no choice at this point.

These new developments are making me even more reluctant to go away. I know someone's suggested I call the local PD to see if they can check up on my house periodically. I just don't know? Do I tell them exactly why I want them to patrol around my home? Will they want an explaination?

Please, if anyone has any suggestions or advice about what I should do now, it would be greatly appreciated. I'm getting more anxious as each day goes by. I had 2 panic attacks today. Am I being overly paranoid? Reading too much into this? Please feel free to be honest and blunt. I would rather know if I am over-reacting. Thanks for all of your help, so far. I really, really appreciate it. God Bless, CMP/MM
 
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