This is the talkback thread for Your Management Was Bad, And You Should Feel Bad. Today on the rabroad blog, Karl Olson talks about the lessons that ought to be learned from the decline of 4Kids and the end of Tokyopop in the U.S.
Blog Talkback: Your Management Was Bad, And You Should Feel Bad
- Thread starter clz
- Start date
Correction: 4Kids does have a Toei property besides DBZ Kai: Tai Chi Chasers. It's dubbed and will likely air in the fall, so they definitely have a working relationship there. Also, the whole Pokemon thing has been a constant debate in the fandom...a lot of fans speculate that TPCI took the show back because they didn't want to share their profit with a third-party.
While the above are good points, and definitely could've helped the company, 4Kids biggest mistake was with Chaotic. They poured millions and millions and millions into creating the own TCG division and developing the one-of-a-kind website, only to have it completely blow up in their face. To their credit, a lot of it was bad timing. It was doing well in Canada (#1 show on Teletoon) and sales were continually increasing in the U.S. too. Then the economic recession hit, completely destroying any momentum it had. But 4Kids was also partially responsible, since originally the launch of the TCG was full of delays.
Had it not been for Chaotic, 4Kids would be probably $30 to $50 million better off.
Also, in general, I'd say it's pretty hard to compare 4Kids with other anime companies, since they're not exactly the same and 4Kids is definitely more of a general kids marketer. Sure, you can compare some points, and the ones Karl has made are good ones, but a more fit comparison would be between 4Kids and Saban or 4Kids and Nelvana instead of 4Kids and FUNimation.
While the above are good points, and definitely could've helped the company, 4Kids biggest mistake was with Chaotic. They poured millions and millions and millions into creating the own TCG division and developing the one-of-a-kind website, only to have it completely blow up in their face. To their credit, a lot of it was bad timing. It was doing well in Canada (#1 show on Teletoon) and sales were continually increasing in the U.S. too. Then the economic recession hit, completely destroying any momentum it had. But 4Kids was also partially responsible, since originally the launch of the TCG was full of delays.
Had it not been for Chaotic, 4Kids would be probably $30 to $50 million better off.
Also, in general, I'd say it's pretty hard to compare 4Kids with other anime companies, since they're not exactly the same and 4Kids is definitely more of a general kids marketer. Sure, you can compare some points, and the ones Karl has made are good ones, but a more fit comparison would be between 4Kids and Saban or 4Kids and Nelvana instead of 4Kids and FUNimation.
lappdawg 911
New member
I think there was always a potential for transformation towards at least proactively marketing to otaku to provide a baseline income.
Also, if were talking money dumped into development that went no where, the flop of Doremi and the complete stillbirth of Pretty Cure also blew through a lot of capital. In fact, they pretty much had a chain of failures in that space, and yes, Chaotic was one of them. They could have bought a lot of otakucentric titles and been in the black on them instead with less over all effort.
Besides, what did Haim Saban do that would've worked for 4kids? He cashed out, effectively sitting out most of the decade, then bought his shows back cheap after the company that had bought them off of him lost interest. 4Kids was essentially doing this decade Saban did the late 80s and 90s - proactively localizing and merchandising import titles. Nelvana, no matter what they did otherwise in business had a key advantage 4kids could never exploit - they are a Canadian company with a suite of tax breaks provided to them because they produce Canadian content.
Since their were no tax breaks for 4kids to game to support their bottom line, and they certainly didn't seem willing to sit the decade out (though, if they'd focused in on their pure merchandise properties, that too might have worked,) really, following the FUNimation method - becoming a vertically integrated, otaku-driven company - falls out of this. They could even made a lot of their TV plays, they just needed to put out some subbed, uncut DVDs at the same time, and made a point to have shows that didn't need a merch line and TV exposure to generate profits.
Meanwhile, 4kids and FUNi always felt like brothers to me in some aspects. Both became industry powerhouses off questionable dubs of popular material, both of which gained additional heat once the time slots went from random syndication slots to fixed broadcast/cable network slots. They were also both essentially driven by their respective CEOs, and both needed to find sequels to their initial success to keep the companies running.
The difference is what they did to extend their success. FUNi attended some anime cons early on in their existence, and recognized that if they were going to tap that fanatic but profitable base, they had to come to it, not vice versa. 4Kids bought Yu-Gi-Oh, and while that worked for them, that set off a chain in their thinking they never recovered from because they thought, quite foolishly, that it had been their handling and strategy that made that a success, when in fact it was the show carrying the whole thing. Any company that had bought Yu-Gi-Oh and stuck it on air in a regular slot and a listenable dub would've boomed. Ditto Pokemon. It was the right show at the right time. All the effort put into heavy localization, and rescoring -- this was a waste, and certainly didn't help them in the long term. They spent tons on trying the same methodology again, again on other shows only to train wreck every time.
That's my thinking at least.
Meanwhile, while 4Kids has one Toei show, they may not get anywhere with it because they're still making the same mistakes (changes, reliance on a dying or at least nadir-point media outlet, etc.) Even if they weren't making those mistake, they might instead still make a different set of mistakes (like questionable accounting.) I mean, lets say that previous partners didn't find anything wrong with 4kids books. If they were still charging partners large "management fees" that went down on their books as profit, that practice still essentially lead to the conclusion - "we'd make more taking this away from them." If this works, and they get Toei fully in their good graces, they better treat them decently. Otherwise, they'll still repeat a mistake their competitors in this space don't make in the first place.
This also assumes their weren't any riders in relation to bankruptcy in the various contracts they have, or assumes that in bankruptcy recovery, they aren't forced to shed properties to create capital to pay off debts. Essentially, I'm not sure if anything they have right now should be counted on being theirs down the road. If nothing else, this is going to have the rest of their partners checking the books, and that might cost them properties as well.
Also, if were talking money dumped into development that went no where, the flop of Doremi and the complete stillbirth of Pretty Cure also blew through a lot of capital. In fact, they pretty much had a chain of failures in that space, and yes, Chaotic was one of them. They could have bought a lot of otakucentric titles and been in the black on them instead with less over all effort.
Besides, what did Haim Saban do that would've worked for 4kids? He cashed out, effectively sitting out most of the decade, then bought his shows back cheap after the company that had bought them off of him lost interest. 4Kids was essentially doing this decade Saban did the late 80s and 90s - proactively localizing and merchandising import titles. Nelvana, no matter what they did otherwise in business had a key advantage 4kids could never exploit - they are a Canadian company with a suite of tax breaks provided to them because they produce Canadian content.
Since their were no tax breaks for 4kids to game to support their bottom line, and they certainly didn't seem willing to sit the decade out (though, if they'd focused in on their pure merchandise properties, that too might have worked,) really, following the FUNimation method - becoming a vertically integrated, otaku-driven company - falls out of this. They could even made a lot of their TV plays, they just needed to put out some subbed, uncut DVDs at the same time, and made a point to have shows that didn't need a merch line and TV exposure to generate profits.
Meanwhile, 4kids and FUNi always felt like brothers to me in some aspects. Both became industry powerhouses off questionable dubs of popular material, both of which gained additional heat once the time slots went from random syndication slots to fixed broadcast/cable network slots. They were also both essentially driven by their respective CEOs, and both needed to find sequels to their initial success to keep the companies running.
The difference is what they did to extend their success. FUNi attended some anime cons early on in their existence, and recognized that if they were going to tap that fanatic but profitable base, they had to come to it, not vice versa. 4Kids bought Yu-Gi-Oh, and while that worked for them, that set off a chain in their thinking they never recovered from because they thought, quite foolishly, that it had been their handling and strategy that made that a success, when in fact it was the show carrying the whole thing. Any company that had bought Yu-Gi-Oh and stuck it on air in a regular slot and a listenable dub would've boomed. Ditto Pokemon. It was the right show at the right time. All the effort put into heavy localization, and rescoring -- this was a waste, and certainly didn't help them in the long term. They spent tons on trying the same methodology again, again on other shows only to train wreck every time.
That's my thinking at least.
Meanwhile, while 4Kids has one Toei show, they may not get anywhere with it because they're still making the same mistakes (changes, reliance on a dying or at least nadir-point media outlet, etc.) Even if they weren't making those mistake, they might instead still make a different set of mistakes (like questionable accounting.) I mean, lets say that previous partners didn't find anything wrong with 4kids books. If they were still charging partners large "management fees" that went down on their books as profit, that practice still essentially lead to the conclusion - "we'd make more taking this away from them." If this works, and they get Toei fully in their good graces, they better treat them decently. Otherwise, they'll still repeat a mistake their competitors in this space don't make in the first place.
This also assumes their weren't any riders in relation to bankruptcy in the various contracts they have, or assumes that in bankruptcy recovery, they aren't forced to shed properties to create capital to pay off debts. Essentially, I'm not sure if anything they have right now should be counted on being theirs down the road. If nothing else, this is going to have the rest of their partners checking the books, and that might cost them properties as well.
Well, interestingly 4Kids was on the verge of going the FUNimation route at one point. All around early 2004, 4Kids was producing a pretty close to uncut dub of Shaman King (though I haven't seen it, just heard about it), dubbed a Pokemon movie where they not only kept the Japanese ending but also hired the singer to sing part of it in English, starting releasing uncut DVDs for Yu-Gi-Oh! and Shaman King, and promised an uncut dub of One Piece, even dubbing the first opening. Then something that we'll probably never understand made 4Kids go back to their regular ways (at least until 2007, when they started offering Japanese Yu-Gi-Oh! online).
I kind of think that the fraudulent activity is something from another era of 4Kids. Notice how the most recent Yu-Gi-Oh! claims from NAS in the lawsuit are dealing with Majesco, the Yu-Gi-Oh! GameBoy Advanced distributor. And it's been ages since there's been a GBA game released for Yu-Gi-Oh!. But that's just a guess.
I kind of think that the fraudulent activity is something from another era of 4Kids. Notice how the most recent Yu-Gi-Oh! claims from NAS in the lawsuit are dealing with Majesco, the Yu-Gi-Oh! GameBoy Advanced distributor. And it's been ages since there's been a GBA game released for Yu-Gi-Oh!. But that's just a guess.
They never really properly committed to it though. Plus, 2007 was late for half-steps, and really, the wrong side of their peak performance (and thus peak cash flow.) Uncut properties would've been an awesome to 2003-5 play for 4Kids. Maybe that's part of the problem - they've kind of been dead man walking for a while, unless they want to make some dramatic reconstruction.
I guess bankruptcy is going to force that on them anyway.
The suit IIRC also mentions discrepancies with how they were reporting the take from FUNimation too though, which suggests in general, 4kids had a policy of writing contracts with their "sub-contractors" where in they charge them management/service fees, and have been reporting these contracts to the companies they license from, then put those management fees down in their own books as profit.
I think all of their partners, present and past, would be wise to scrutinize 4Kids contract practices and habits to see if they'd been had.
I guess bankruptcy is going to force that on them anyway.
The suit IIRC also mentions discrepancies with how they were reporting the take from FUNimation too though, which suggests in general, 4kids had a policy of writing contracts with their "sub-contractors" where in they charge them management/service fees, and have been reporting these contracts to the companies they license from, then put those management fees down in their own books as profit.
I think all of their partners, present and past, would be wise to scrutinize 4Kids contract practices and habits to see if they'd been had.
I'm glad that VIZ and Funimation have hit hard on streaming, but manga publishers really need to do the same.
When it's as easy as a google search to find the latest manga chapters on a scanlation site there is a problem. If publishers don't offer a better service NOW they might lose their chance to keep a piece of the market away from illegal activity.
When it's as easy as a google search to find the latest manga chapters on a scanlation site there is a problem. If publishers don't offer a better service NOW they might lose their chance to keep a piece of the market away from illegal activity.
whtsthislif4
New member
Yeah, VIZ is getting there, but really, the publishers need to recognize that they can't wait for the ideal technology - people will take a hit in certain areas in exchange for price/convenience, especially since the Borders bankruptcy is about to make manga access somewhat scarce in some areas, while countless teens are going to end up with netbooks and tablet computers. Go where the access is.
Miss Brooks
New member
I know people lost jobs, but business is business. Companies with practices like 4kids are inexcusable in this day and age; maybe in the 80s when Anime was unknown and we got butchered stuff like Starblazers and Robotech and Samurai Pizza Cats. I also hated how they licensed Precure, and worse yet, didn't even air it
IIRC the only one left is Nelvana, who ruined Bakugan :sad: but they don't seem that active
IIRC the only one left is Nelvana, who ruined Bakugan :sad: but they don't seem that activeIf I had to make a guess I would say Viz is next to fall. They've had staff reductions and their DVDs seem cheaply/poorly made. They also have a few series they never finished dubbing or releasing on DVD.
They just recently caught the hint that DVD singles don't sell anymore, with their discontinuation of the Naruto Shippuden and Bleach singles. When is the last time TRSI had a Viz DVD sale? Not for a long time. Looks like Viz needs all the money they can get.
Their manga division seems to be holding its own though.
Hopefully they can learn from others and pull themselves away from the edge.
They just recently caught the hint that DVD singles don't sell anymore, with their discontinuation of the Naruto Shippuden and Bleach singles. When is the last time TRSI had a Viz DVD sale? Not for a long time. Looks like Viz needs all the money they can get.
Their manga division seems to be holding its own though.
Hopefully they can learn from others and pull themselves away from the edge.
pinuppirategirl
New member
When Naruto got booted off CN's airwaves that crippled Viz, especially as Disney XD has nowhere the amount of available viewers and DXD doesn't seem to want to support Shippuden much longer anyway.
I think Viz might have to suck up giving Cartoon Network a significantly larger cut of the DVDs and merchandise or they're going to die.
4kids . . .I'm not sure how long they'll hold out. They don't have much of anything left and I highly doubt Tai Chio Chasers will be the knight in shining armor that saves them.
Tokyopop was hosed the moment Fruits Basket ended. When Kodansha took their business elsewhere that denied Tokyopop almost every kind of big-name title available. Even Mirai Nikki is a cult fave at best.
I think Viz might have to suck up giving Cartoon Network a significantly larger cut of the DVDs and merchandise or they're going to die.
4kids . . .I'm not sure how long they'll hold out. They don't have much of anything left and I highly doubt Tai Chio Chasers will be the knight in shining armor that saves them.
Tokyopop was hosed the moment Fruits Basket ended. When Kodansha took their business elsewhere that denied Tokyopop almost every kind of big-name title available. Even Mirai Nikki is a cult fave at best.
mgenese10201
New member
It'd be hard to believe that viz of all people would fail. But if they're still doing singles....yikes.. Bandai is also still doing singles too, right? that's just horrible. Anime and internet savvy are inexorably intertwined. It's a shame that most if not all of these distro companies never got this.
Although some of it may have to do with the original japanese companies and labyrinthine contracts and archaic business philosophies.
and for tokyopop, yeah, it was blatantly obvious that the only thing that kept them going as long as they did was Fruits Basket. Did they even Finish that big hardcover series of FB? That would be really cool if they did.
The only ones who can save anime/manga in america right now are Shueisha, who NEED to get on board with Viz with Simulcasted Online Manga Chapters of Naruto, Bleach, and One Piece. That is the ONLY WAY. Illegal sites make a fortune off this.
Although some of it may have to do with the original japanese companies and labyrinthine contracts and archaic business philosophies.
and for tokyopop, yeah, it was blatantly obvious that the only thing that kept them going as long as they did was Fruits Basket. Did they even Finish that big hardcover series of FB? That would be really cool if they did.
The only ones who can save anime/manga in america right now are Shueisha, who NEED to get on board with Viz with Simulcasted Online Manga Chapters of Naruto, Bleach, and One Piece. That is the ONLY WAY. Illegal sites make a fortune off this.