Blog Talkback: The Incredible Disappearing Animation Channel

I might as well use this thread to say much I feel conflicted regarding CN's shift to live-action. I was unquestionably on the "No live-action on CN" bandwagon, but I have felt conflicted ever since the live-action show "Tower Prep" was announced. I am a pretty big fan of Paul Dini and have enjoyed nearly everything he's ever had a hand in (the only exceptions being the kinda crummy cartoons he wrote in the '80s for Filmation and the like, the occasional subpar "Tiny Toons" episodes he wrote and/or story-edited, and I hear that "Countdown" DC Comics "event" was pretty reprehensible). Plus, IINM, Tower Prep delves into the sci-fi/fantasy genre that far too few American live-action TV kids' shows have tapped into in recent memory. I'd rather have the current generation of kids have shows that inspire a love of the fantastic (much like how I had the Land of the Lost reboot, Alex Mack, So Weird, and even Power Rangers and other "Sabanizations" like VR Troopers and Beetleborgs as a kid in the '90s) than the mundane tweenage sitcoms that have ruled the ratings for the past decade. So, I wonder if supporting "Tower Prep" would be wise in this age of Cartoon Network being one of the easiest targets for animation fans (next to Dreamworks Animation and Jeffrey Katzenberg, that is). Sign.
 
I think there's been a bit of a downward spiral with cable in general. I remember when A&E was one of my go-to channels. I don't think it even has shows on the fine arts anymore. Likewise, Ice Road Truckers is an interesting concept but _history_? And if the Ghost Hunters are legit, should they really be on a channel devoted to science fiction and bad spelling? With that in mind, I'm relieved to know CN/AS still makes animated shows I want to watch. I know I'm watching more new toons on CN than I am from the networks on Satam. Yes, I'm avoiding the live action aside from the Scooby and ben10 movies but all in all, it hasn't been renamed and it's still predominately animation. A bit tweeny in places but not awful.
 
It's almost a reverse of what happened with radio, with stations for all being replaced by hard genres. I don't think going too far in either direction is healthy...but yeah, I think all the kid nets are making a mistake here. Walt Disney built his brand on cartoons. Nickelodeon used to be one of the most vibrant, interesting, experimental animation creators and buyers in the world.

And Cartoon Network? Cartoon Network used to give us toonheads, and Oh Canada, that really showed us more about who made our toons, and how amazing animation from just over the border could be.

I still think Cartoon Network is the best out there. My girlfriend and I love Adventure Time, and I wait with bated breath for Sym-bionic Titan. But I don't watch adult swim anymore, because it's not what I grew to love about the block: subversive, new cartoons.

*SIGH*. If Warners wants a bloody general Kid's net so much, they should just go out and *make* one. You'll always alienate fans away from your company if you take the Cartoons out of the quite literally named Cartoon Network.

I just don't get it. It's not like this hasn't proven to be a money making *machine*, year after year, decade after decade(As "Despicable Me's" box office performance shows). These things are a goldmine, you just need to tell a good story. Heck, even the animation quality isn't the most important thing in the world...how many millions tuned in for Superfriends? He-man? All those Sunbow cartoons where they couldn't remember what size everything was relative to everything else with each perspective change?

Animation is cheap, it is efficient, and in the right hands it is darned near magical. It just saddens me to see that The Powers That Be always seem to want to distance themselves from it, only to rediscover what they threw away as the treasure it truly is.
 
It's not just cartoon networks. Almost all networks that have (or used to have) a specialized focus are losing (or have completely lost) said focus.



Everything is becoming a "general bunch of stuff" channel nowadays. Networks devoted to sci-fi, animation, history, video games, music, technology, education, etc., apparently aren't so good for business anymore.


I think Animal Planet and Comedy Central have both stayed pretty faithful to their premises. I wonder how long they'll last before they become "A to the P" and "The CC Channel".
 
It saddens me where Cartoon Network and many other channels dedicated to animation have gone. Just in the past few moments I found some old Toonami promos prior to 2003, which gave me so much nostalgia it made me sadder. Its insulting(IMO) that Cartoon Network continues to call themselves Cartoon Network when their is a large amount of live action programming. Nicktoons a channel I used to be very fond one has gone the same route, as well as Disney XD, which I liked better as Toon Disney. Its just so sad to me....most of TV doesn't show what they are intended to. MTV has little to do with music, SyFy doesn't have as much Science Fiction programing, even Adult Swim has a higher of amount of live action programming! Its just plain sad. :(
 
I know. Maybe if Time Warner created a 'generic kids network' in the 90's, they could have an outlet for 'general kids entertainment', and Cartoon Network wouldn't be in the mess that they're currently in. :sad: I couldn't have said it better, myself! :) It's as if the people currently running these networks want to fundamentally change them just to suit their own twisted agendas. If that's the case, then why the heck would you pursue a career at specialty network that doesn't fit your own personal interests. It's like an artist working for Mcdonalds as a bus boy, and changing the work environment to fit his artistic needs rather than what your suppose to do to earn money, and buy art supplies on your own time. :shrug:You said it brother. It's getting to the point where cable TV is no longer worth paying for these days. Yet, the broadcast networks aren't any better with all the infomercials, sleazy talk shows, sitcoms, and local news cluttering their schedule. :shrug:
 
In Cartoon Network's defense, it's not as though live-action has completely taken over the channel. I agree that ideally the number of live-action shows and movies on Toon should be zero, but it's clear that LA is something Toon's current high-ups really want to do (a point which I'll elaborate on below) and some of these projects have succeeded in putting butts in seats, so the LA on Toon isn't going to go away anytime soon. However, there are still plenty of animated projects coming to Cartoon Network in addition to the titles already airing there: Sym-Biotic Titan, Horrorbots, Regular Show, MAD, The Adventures of Gumball and the Looney Tunes Show, to name only a few. (Any network that's going to provide us with a new Looney Tunes show I can't completely look down on.) As long as the animation to live-action ratio on Toon remains around 85/15 in favor of animation, then I can at least tolerate the live-action projects on Cartoon Network. As with any network, I just ignore the shows which don't pique my interest.



I agree, and I actually conceived a way for this to happen:

Boomerang is a waste of a channel that's been collecting dust on the digital tier wasteland for a whole decade. I would terminate Boomerang (the channel) and remake it as the general kids' entertainment channel that Snyder and Sorcher want so badly. This new channel (I'd probably call it BOOM!, but you don't have to) would be a basic cable commercial channel bundled with Cartoon Network (like how TBS and TNT are typically bundled together on many basic cable/satellite packages), and all of Cartoon Network's live action shows and movies would be moved from Toon to BOOM! [adult swim] would also be moved to the new channel.

But what about the classic cartoons, you ask? Boomerang (the channel) would be no more, but Boomerang (the block) would still exist; Boomerang (the block) would go to Cartoon Network, taking the place of [adult swim], airing in [as]'s old time slot. That way, CN is all animation again, the live-action is off of Cartoon Network, the classic cartoons on Boomerang have a home on basic cable where more people can enjoy them, [adult swim] can air all the live-action they want without complaints from animation fans and Sorcher and Snyder have an outlet for their live-action projects which won't interfere with Cartoon Network's credo. Everybody's happy.
 
See, I personally believe that biased feelings are the cause of CN's decision.

The fact is that the old guard consisted of folks who enjoyed running an animation channel. They had fun.

Today you have folks in charge who'd rather run a network with as less toons as possible (TNT, Disney Channel, TBS, TVLand, CW). Obviously the channels they prefer aren't hiring, so they want CN to conform to their standards.

Why do I believe this?

1. They claim that live action is being done for diversity, when they could increase the airing of action/adventure cartoons with less comedy, and for that matter airing some comedies devoid of children or the schoolyard.

It's not the 24 hour of cartoons that's redundant. It's the type of cartoons that make the network redundant.

Now sure, perhaps comedies bring in better ratings, but if diversity is really the name of the game and they're willing to do a more serious show, some serious cartoons would definitely bring diversity.

2. Let's look at The Secret Saturday. The cartoon didn't perform to CN's liking so little by little, they phased it out rather than giving it time to grow. I mean it took Spongebob Squarepants and Rugrats time to find an audience you know.

But fast forward to today. Unnatural History isn't performing to CN's liking. So naturally they'd pull the plug right? Nope, they're giving it a chance to find an audience. Where was this patience when Secret Saturdays was airing? Frankly it's obvious of why UH is getting special treatment (It's the medium CN is trying to push on viewers).
 
That's the exact same conclusion I came to. As always, great mind think alike. ;)Another good point. I'd like to see more actions, and more cartoons that don't take place in a school yard, myself.I've learned that when 'Cheers' debuted on NBC, it didn't become a huge hit right out the gate, but the execs had some faith in the show, and over time, it eventually found it's audience. Same thing with 'Seinfeld'.
 
One of the few positives about the CRTC is that all channels have to have a set goal on what their programming offers and are required by Canadian broadcast law to abide by it. So this means that despite the fact Teletoon has given the green light to 4 or so live action shows (however, a few are hybrids) they still must focus on animation. Same goes for Muchmusic and actually broadcasting music videos (although, current management has attempted to shift all of it into horrible timeslots in favor of ABC Family, CW, and TeenNick/CTV shows) and programming related to music. However, broadcast licenses do expire, and can be changed with the new applications.
 
1. It is not redundant and it is diverse. For action, they have the three Ben 10 series, Generator Rex, Hero:108, Metajets, Totally Spies as well as The Amazing Spies, Star Wars: The Clone Wars, and they're about to have Sym-Bionic Titan, a Young Justice cartoon, and a new Thundercats series.

For comedy, they Adventure Time, Chowder, Flapjack, the Total Drama series, 6teen, Stoked, reruns of Kids Next Door ,Courage the Cowardly Dog as well as Ed Edd and Eddy and Scooby-Doo, plus the new Scooby-Doo series Mystery Inc. How is that not diverse? Plus, a number of the above have good ratings, how is it redundant?

Why does it matter so much whether the main characters of a cartoon are kids or in school? Children identify more with characters around their age. Besides, this isn't just how it is with Cartoon Network, it's the same thing with Nick and Disney currently, and has pretty much been like this for the last few decades. It may be nice to have a couple of comedy cartoons with only adults, but how far could they really get with young demographics?



2. The Secret Saturdays isn't a comedy like Spongebob or Rugrats, though. If a series does poorly, or if advertisers are not satisfied with how program is doing in the timeslot their ads are sponsoring for, than of course it's going to fizzle out on the schedule.

However, it should be noted that The Secret Saturdays isn't the only example. Aside from Spongebob, Rugrats, and possibly The Fairly Oddparents, has Nickelodeon given any cartoon a real chance? Can we say for sure that The Penguins of Madigascar and Fanboy and Chum-Chum will last longer than Danny Phantom or The Mighty B?


To get back to Cartoon Network, it should also be noted that while Chowder was canceled, it didn't phase out on the schedule like TSS, in fact Cartoon Network still aired promos for new episodes of it, and it's even been in reruns frequently as today.


3. (You didn't have a three, I'm just adding a three for convience ;)) If they did that have that much faith in Unnatural History, it would stay on it's original timeslot on Sunday. Putting it on Tuesday which has not even been used before isn't going to do much for it's recovery. Just because it may be a new episode against a rerun on Nick and Disney doesn't mean it won't have competition.

Besides, they took off a number of reruns for it, and haven't mentioned it in their rating reports. And if Cartoon Network is only pushing live-action, then why did the animated program announcements far outnumber the live-action ones? And why did they recently cancel all their live movie projects???
 
Yes, but aside from mornings, you don't see as much action titles weekday. For the time being, I can understand B10 UA and Generator Rex airing solely on weekends, but Batman The Brave and The Bold, Ben 10 Alien Force and Clone Wars have a significant amount of episodes for the week day airing.



In moderation, nothing, but when a high portion of cartoons tend to follow that route it gets a little, well, redundant. Especially when the live action portion of the schedules focus on those kinds of stories already.

And yes, to be fair Nickelodeon, Nicktoons and CN are at least willing to go outside that format. CN could stand to do it a little more.



Plenty of adult centered cartoons did just fine with the young demograph. Popeye, The Flintstones, Ducktales, Talespin, Darkwing Duck, Superfriends, Looney Tunes, Transformers, G.I. Joe, Pinky & The Brain, Men In Black, Batman The Animated Series, Spongebob Squarepants, Exosquad, The Batman.

As for Nick doing it for several decades, I'd have to disagree as they had The Ren & Stimpy Show, Rocko's Modern Life, Angry Beavers, Catdog and of course Spongebob Squarepants.

Sure the argument might be that they're animals/robots or action heroes, but it proves that the audience can enjoy the show even if the character exceeds them in age. I mean has any kid specifically rejected a cartoon because the lead was an adult?

Even then, they could stand to compromise by having some cartoons with both a kid and an adult in the lead (Tale Spin, Flapjack, The Filmation Batman Cartoons, Jackie Chan Adventures).

Anyway, I hope this didn't go too off-topic, but when a network claims that their decision is to bring diversity, but then has several action cartoons with a high school student, it tends to bring mixed messages.



There was a time when network execs could make the distinction between a hit, a success (not the big thing, but it still puts the audience butts in their seats and makes back the money spent) and a failure. Nowadays the only thing they see is failure or hit.

But the point is, that the aformentioned shows prove that patience can be a virtue. Heck, even though some hits like Pokemon (anime, not the game) and Power Rangers were the big thing upon airing, the expectations of them succeding were so low, that they were both suppose to end after one season and with a conclusive ending, thus closing the door to a continuation.

So I think there is something to taking the humble and patient approach.

Even Ed Edd and Eddy took awhile to become a hit. Irony is that if the show premiered this decade with the same ratings it originally got, it would be off the air faster than you can say carpe diem.



Oh they're just as guilty, but since CN is the network that this topic is centered around, I didn't see it appropriate to bring it up. But you are right on that account. But then, Spongebob and Fairly Oddparents came on the network at the right time. Between CN and Nick, a lot of these shows might have actually seen better luck had they premiered in the 90s or at least early 2000s.



Fair enough, but they are still showing it more patience than Secret Saturday. I mean if Unnatural History was a cartoon, would they be showing it the same amount of patience?



Well, CN seemed to be eager to do this back in 2007 after launching Out of Jimmy's Head, but for a while seemed to cut down on the live action stuff for a good portion of 2008.

So either they are going to go back to being more about cartoons or this is more of a break until they can come up with some other ideas.

Otherwise, point taken.

But...

4. The other claim is that they've added live action to compete with DC and Nick. Fine, but the thing to keep in mind is that of Nickelodeon's top show, one of them is a cartoon. Yet CN seems to overlook or don't really care about that fact.



Thing is that channels like G4 weren't necessarily a success to begin with, so you could accept that the changes were from a business standpoint. CN, however, has proven to be a success under it's original format.
 
I've been thinking for years that whoever is running Cartoon Network these days must have some inane hatred of animation. The problem isn't just a shift toward live-action - the quality of the cartoons airing on networks like CN these days is markedly worse than it was ten years ago. The soulless suits in charge of animation networks really don't care about the quality of their product. They just want to capture their target demographics.
 
Hence why the current regime at Cartoon Network is now trying to compete with Nickelodeon and Disney Channel head-on by offering what they offer--a heavy dose of teen/tween-centric shows combined with some animated shows. But the key difference is that Nick and Disney were never exclusively about animation, nor did they ever claim to be. Cartoon Network, by its' very name, is supposed to be the home of cartoons.

I think Toon would stand out more if they tried to market themselves as the alternative to Nick and Disney rather than trying to copy those channels.
 
I understand changing the format due to business decisions, but what's the point in having a cartoon network (let alone calling it that) if you're airing live-action? That *still* doesn't make any sense to me. I can understand if the live-action in question deals with animation or had cartoony elements in it, but straight up live-action (say something like Degrassi) is just a "no" for me.

I liked TV better when all the channels did their own thing. It's not fun when it seems like everyone's abandoning their original purposes and copying each other in their quest for ratings. They always say things come in cycles: I hope this one is temporary.
 
I think the problem with a lot of these networks at the moment is the people with creativity and passion found their own domains where they didn't have to put up with the simple-minded, immediate-gratification driven execs. Seibert, who was instrumental in getting animation together at Nick and CN repeatedly ditched out to his own domain in Frederator. Lazzo and a lot of the other CN staff, who was critical in picking additional staffers at CN who loved animation all ditched to [adult swim] if not left the network entirely.

We used to have some of the most brilliant and passionate minds working at the heart of these companies, and they all left or took jobs where they didn't have to deal with the corporate heads, so sycophants sympathetic to quarterly profit thinking took those jobs, and the networks suffer for it.

Flipside is, the gradual build of the FUNimation Channel has shown that the specialty network isn't dead. It's making FUNimation money, and it's growing it's audience. Maybe once it's a real threat, the other networks might stand up and take notice... or buyout FUNi and ruin it. After all, that's what happened to Turner. He sells the channels out to TimeWarner, and he regrets the decision to this day because even he feels they wrecked everything, including CN.
 
Indeed! I agree completely! 2003 began the "downfall" of Cartoon Network IMO. The 90s and early 2000s was a great era of amazing cartoons, not on just Cartoon Network but almost everywhere. Cartoons seemed to be for adults as well as children back then, very rarely do shows do that nowadays. They were complicated, intelligent, and just amazing. I'm afraid what cartoons are going to be like 10 years from now. :crying:
 
Yet, in the past they could identify with anthromorphic characters who acted like adults. I've noticed this for a while now, and I'm starting to get the feeling that Cartoon Network might fear some kind of parental uprising from some of these action cartoons airing in the afternoon. That could explain their migration to early mornings, and weekends. :sad:Very good point. Too much of one thing can get tiresome after a while.The same thing could be said about MTV throughout the 80's, and early 90's.
 
To further my argument that diversity could be achieved without going against the format, let's look at the Sci-Fi/SyFy Network for a moment.

Same issue with CN. Obvious a network full of Science Fiction shows don't lend themselves to diversity right? Wrong. Does the show have to be Science Fiction heavy to fit? I mean look The Incredible Hulk, Alf and Detective Conan. All three shows have Science Fiction elements, and yet are drastically different from each other:

1. The Incredible Hulk: Aside from some episodes, The Hulk really doesn't take up too much screentime. Episodes tend to focus on quite a bit of human issues like family, love, suicide, child abuse, memory loss, handicap, etc.

2. Alf: The title character is an alien, and thus provides the Science Fiction element to fit on the network. But aside from that, it's basically a sitcom and thus again very different than many Sci-Fi heavy shows.

3. Detective Conan (Case Closed in the US): The title character was a high school detective who's body reverted to the age of 7 due to a drug (Science Fictional element) and uses some high tech gadgets (Science Fiction element 2) to catch the bad guy or solve the case. Aside from that, it's more of a murder mystery show.

Now I'm not suggesting or implying that these should be on SyFy, but obviously they would fulfill the need for diversity, while keeping the Sci-Fi theme. Everybody wins.


Now looking at Cartoon Network, why not try for:
1. Some fantasy based cartoons: Something along the lines of Lord of The Rings and Avatar The Last Airbender.
2. Some outerspace show: Something along the lines of Star Trek and Star Wars (which they have).
3. Some mystery cartoons: Ok, there is Scooby Doo, but maybe something more like Sherlock Holmes or The Great Mouse Detective/Basil of Baker Street.


Plus, as I've stated, there are ways that CN could make Live Action relevant to the network:

A. Air movies that had a cartoon spin off, as well as airing the corresponding cartoon:

- Ace Ventura Pet Detective: 40 episodes
- Back To The Future: 26 episodes
- Beethoven: 24 episodes
- Beetlejuice: 109 episodes
- Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventures: 21 episodes
- Dumb & Dumber: 13 episodes
- Ghostbusters (Real and Extreme): 147 and 40 episodes respectively
- Free Willy: 11 episodes
- Jumanji: 40 episodes
- Karate Kid: 12 episodes
- The Mask The Animated Series: 54 episodes
- Men In Black The Series: 53
- The Mummy The Animated Series: 26 episodes
- Ozzy & Drix (Based off Osmosis Jones): 26 episodes
- Stuart Little The Animated Series: 13 episodes
- Teen Wolf: 21 episodes

Counting sequels, that's about 37 movie that you can air on the network with the right animated show.

Now the longer shows could actually last on the schedule for awhile, but for the shorter cartoons, I'd:

- Air a marathon of said cartoon with the movie as a follow up.
- Air it on the channel for a month, with said movie airing at the end of the month.

B. For October I find that there are three more appropriate alternatives to Goosebumps:

1. Batman
- The 1990s Movies
- The Batman VS Dracula
- Batman The Brave & The Bold
- Batman: Gotham Knights
- Superman/Batman: Public Enemies

2. Casper
- Live action films from 1995-1998.
- Casper Scare School and the TV Series Tie In.
- If possible the various Casper cartoons from the past decades.

3. Scooby Doo
- The Mystery Begins.
- Mystery Inc and some of the other past series.

4. Teen Wolf
- The live action movie
- The Animated Series

5. Beetlejuice
- The live action movie
- The Animated Series

C. If CN thinks that Goosebumps is a worthwhile property, then they should try for an animated continuation. Then air an hour of Goosebumps. One live action, and one animated.

D. Try for more animation/live action hybrid. Using Out of Jimmy's Head to assume the format is a failure is a cop out considering that Bedknob & Broomsticks, Who Framed Roger Rabbit and Space Ghost Coast to Coast were successful. Even something simple like say a game show hosted by a cartoon character would work.

E. Frankly the problem isn't that kids lack an interest in cartoons. Rather kids today are in a hurry to grow up and thinking that they have to drop cartoons to achieve that. Therefore create either a show or segments where celebrities discuss their fondness for animation. It will prove that enjoying animation doesn't hamper with social capabilities or prevent you from living a successful life.

F. Have a reality show titled something like "Who Will Be The Next Cartoon Network Writer?" Basically the show would have all of these writers who are looking to submit their cartoon ideas to Cartoon Network. To determine which candidate gets chosen, the judges will be kids and teens who are in the network's demograph.

G. Have some more behind the scenes specials for the cartoons that air on CN. Heck, any kids who aspires to do cartoons later in life would benefit from this.

H. Have other shows similar to Shake Rattle and Roll, which is basically a sitcom, but has cartoon shorts airing between the main story. Heck, Pee-Wee's Playhouse, while not a sitcom allows fits in this mold. Live action show with a couple cartoons in the middle.

I. Have a new series showing cartoon shorts with a kid introducing and hosting the cartoon.

J. Look for some other cartoons that are easily or reasonably translatable to Live Action (i.e. Scooby Doo or Ben 10).


Sure for some specialty networks you have to choose between keeping the theme consistent or going for diversity, but for the reasons I listed, CN could actually have it both ways.
 
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