Blog Talkback: Introversion in Anime and Comics

Alright I watched an episode and.. I still don't get it :confused: I guess as a preschooler show it's okay, but it seems so standard. The art is simple and flat and undefiled like a lot of stuff on TV, and it's Flash animation so it was really stiff and they used a lot of tweening. It's pretty much your standard episodic 'teach kids an important moral lesson of the day' show. I don't really want to rag on it since it's for girls way way younger than me, but I cant believe someone would say it's one of the best things on TV

I don't really like Adventure Time either, I'm not really into those random silly kids comedy shows. That's all Cartoon Network seems to make these days, Flapjack and Chowder seemed no different. And wasn't SBT just cancelled? I got tired of it by the 8th filler episode, the plot never really went anywhere and again the art was really painful. The humans looked so ugly, especially the robots human form and that one jock he befriended voiced by Patrick Star. I definitely would rather watch Star Driver or Tiger and Bunny for my robot fix

Yeah, 20 anime at a time is a bit much, but there's just so much stuff out there that's interesting. I don't see how you can say theres nothing to watch, if anything there's too much stuff being made. There's still anime that came out last year I still have on my to watch list. Ive been watching tons of anime for over 10 years now, i dont think ill get burned out with tons of new stuff every month. I just don't relly see how American animation is in a 'renaissance' when there's so little being made in both number and variety; and they all get cancelled before reaching an end like SBT was. That doesn't seem very helpful to the industry.
 
You must not watch a lot of shoujo. :p

Uh, usually when there's a lot of tweening the animation is smoother and more fluid. MLP does indeed have a lot of tweens because it IS fairly smooth. Stiff animation would have far less, and be much jerkier, like a low budget episode of Naruto or Bleach (complete with filler!face).

And MOST cartoons aimed at kids - on either side of the pacific are "teach kids an important moral lesson" type shows. Shounen anime might take a little longer to get there, and can be more sophisticated at times, but it still boils down to the same stuff.

We're not saying there isn't anything to watch, we're saying that 90% of it may as well have been recycled from last year, or the year before that, or the year before that. If you've been watching for 10 years, you should know that. Quantity =/= quality. If you still find it interesting - good for you! But a good chunk of the rest of the fandom doesn't. And it's a big enough chunk that it has the industry and the analysts worried.

As a side note, I wouldn't call what American animation is experiencing now a renaissance - at least, not yet. There's certainly been a resurgence of good shows, but it hasn't hit anything near renaissance levels, and it won't if the networks keep axing stuff before it gets a chance to establish itself - but that's a discussion for another thread.

American COMICS on the other hand, are definitely experiencing a Renaissance. While Marvel and DC are still struggling with how to keep their superhero's relevant, indie artists are quickly moving in and filling the gaping hole that the comics code ripped in the fabric of Things That Can Be Published. There's still no money in it though. :B
 
Actually I watch a lot of shoujo. Shows like Ouran and Precure are my favorite. I'm also watching Pretty Rhythm Aurora Dream right now for this season. I think that's why I don't care for the show, I've seen a lot better girl shows , which are quite common in Japan. Here it seems to be limited to Bratz and other doll shows is all girls get.:sad: So I guess compared to Bratz its good but compared to Precure and Ouran and Nana I find it lacking

I wouldn't lump shounen morals in with it, though. There's a big difference from episodic network mandated aesops and a theme like never giving up your dream. The lessons in the first tend to be forgotten by the next episode

I will say I think there's a bigger group of complainers these days though. People who use the word moe for example. It's just a buzzword people use when they want to complain about a show they don't like. Its hard to take the people who refuse to elaborate their use of that word seriously. They tend to ignore cutsey shows like Card Captor Sakura and Azumanga Daioh existed in the past as well. Recycling seems odd to complain about though.. In what way? That there's a mech show every season or something? Anime from the 90s isn't exactly original either I would bet. So I would have to disagree with whatever analysts you're referring to, I think it's just because of the lack of anime on US TV. There's still tons of stuff in it's home country, but network censors and cultural differences prevent it from being shared here. Detective Conan was watched by kids in Japan, but it had to be aimed at adults here, which is really silly since it's quite fun and lighthearted.... Aside from the murder :D Anime might die here, but it existed before the American market and can exist after it in the worst case scenario... 90 percent of the stuff I watch never gets licensed anyway sadly :sad: I'd love some Oreimo or Precure DVD or BluRays
 
No one said cutesy shows didn't exist before. What people are saying is that theres an over-saturation of cutesy shows, and that can't be denied. And when someone throws the word moe around to describe a show what that says to me is that the aforementioned show was made with otaku in mind, which is usually true. Theres nothing wrong with recycling because after all theres nothing new under the sun, but flooding the market with exact same type of shows is a terrible idea. You only end up with a bunch of mediocre shows that are strikingly similar in terms of execution and quality.
 
Oversaturation is relative, especially without any examples being listed. Just how many 'cutsey' shows does there need to be for it too be too much? And what constitutes being too 'cutesy'? Are we pretty much forsaking shojo now? The whole moe complaining just seems really sexist to me, I think it's nice Japan can have female leads without networks or executives saying no. That's one big thing I always liked about anime. Maybe it's because I'm a girl so I have no problem with female leads or something compared to guys
 
Hey now, the reason I dislike moe so much is because it is sexist. Theres absolutely nothing wrong with female leads unless they are moe. Because moe characters tend to be stupid and only able to function with the help of the male lead. And they're written that way specifically for male otaku. I'm taling about shows like Clannad, Toradora and K-On!. Or characters like Orihime from Bleach, or Mikuru Asahina from Haruhi.
 
Bleach runs in a magazine aimed at middle school boys, its for kids, there is nothing "moe" about it or Orihime or any of its characters, and its not made or written for some otaku niche, this thing is mass market.

Im going to have to agree with Azunyan here, you cant just take any female character or female led show you just happen to dislike and call it "moe".

If thats how it is then the word has no meaning.
 
I know it's an opinion, but Sym-bionic Titan's artwork is painful? Personally, I thought animation was great. It gets on my nerves when everyone in a series is bishounen and bishoujo. The relationship between Kimmy and Octus wouldn't have been nearly as effective if Octus' human form was 'pretty'.

And Adventure Time is somewhat random indeed, but it's witty and the characters are fun. And a lot of the humor are things that can make teenagers and adults genuinely laugh. I do believe Western animation is on the uptake, because honestly about three years ago it was rock bottom.

Due to personal preference, I don't really watch as much anime as I used to. I still find a couple of shows that I can enjoy (or I wouldn't be posting in this section), but there are times where I miss shows I may like because I get tired of having to wade through the harems, generic shounen, series with too much fanservice, high school comedies that rely the same tired tropes, shows targeting otaku, over-reliance on beautiful people (Star Driver was just too fabulous for me:sweat:), etc. A lot of anime combines many of those into one series (IS Infinite Stratos very well may be the worst popular show I've seen in ten years).

This should be expected though, Sturgeon's Law and all.
 
...Are there even guys as main characters in K-on? I was under the impression it was solely focused on the girls, much like Azumanga Daioh did. Which, of course, would mean they're easily able to function without a male lead.
 
Nope, no guys in K-On, though it was targeted towards male otaku. Cute schoolgirls doing cute things (with tons of merchandise).

Not that there's anything wrong with that, not my cup of tea though.
 
And Sturgeon's Law has always applied to anime (and pretty much every other medium) the difference is that anime fans were only used to seeing the mostly 10% but now thanks to the internet we're exposed to every thing, the full 100% only for fans to realize that most of it is crap. This and add the factor that western fans and Japanese fans's tastes are diverging you create a feeling that anime is in a rut.
 
That's kinda my biggest problem with moe complaints, it's so vague it ends up being a buzzword people use for anything. Melfina from Outlaw Star was sweet and cute, Edward from Cowboy Bebop was cute, Ojamajo Doremi and similar shoujo have sugary cuteness everywhere. The word moe only popped up in the last few years, but it can apply to shows decades old. I kinda wish people made season charts back in the 90s, imagine if Cowboy Bebop was the only 'good' show that came out for it's season and people would be saying how 'anime is bad now, there's only one good show this season worth watching':sad: People don't say why they dislike a show anymore by critiquing the story or writing. It's just 'oh, moe, pass, killing the industry'

In general I just dislike how a lot of modern shows look. It's like they're competing to see who can make it as cheap as possible. I remember Animaniacs and similar shows had nice art and animation back in the day, but it's all flash and geometric shapes these days. I know there were bad looking old shows like Powerpuff Girls and Dexters Lab, but it seems modern shows either ape the simplistic flash style or anime style. SBT looks better than like Johnny Test or Total Drama, but the designs still seemed ugly to me and undetailed. In Octus's case, he could look fat like Gluttony from FMA or Chouji from Naruto and still not be bishounen but more detailed and polished. The art just seemed flat and uninspired to me. Some scenes where Meat looked like he was drawn by John K and Spumco just stand out as the 'painful' parts. Kimmy was supposed to be the 'hot girl' but I though her face looked flat and oddly shaped and kinda mannish in a lot of scenes, like when she's shown from the side
 
I`ll both agree and disagree in that I cannot stand the charachter or design of Meat and IMO he's the worst aspect of SBT, even worse than the filler that plagued the 2nd half of the series.

. I`ll also agree that Kimmy looks a bit mannish (I think it's the chin). But my agreements stop there in that I think SBT overall was designed with a really great looking style and excellent animation, and I initially hated Octus's design, but once I found out he was supposed to be a robot in human disguise, I thought it was perfect.
 
The term is often used incorrectly; Moe CAN be used to simply describe a cute character, but moe as a genera is, in a nutshell, characters who are cute - and nothing else. A show full of one dimensionally cute characters doing cute things, in cute ways is a standard moe show. The entire point of those shows is for sad, sad otaku to watch them and drool over some unattainable, weird ideal of womanhood (as epitomized by a high school girl who appears to be about 12). Occasionally something good will come out of the genera (can't name any off the top of my head as it doesn't interest me in the slightest), but the bulk of it is completely forgettable - which is why non-moe fans will not bother with it. We know what to expect.

And it's concerning when the bulk of the new shows for a season are moe, with or without a harem situation (don't even get me started on harem "comedies" :p). There are plenty of bad giant robot anime, Dragonball clones, high concept sci-fi, moody vampire shows, and magical girl escapades floating around out there, but at least those are TRYING to be interesting. Moe shows don't even bother with that; they're there for one thing, and one thing only: they run their 26 (sometimes 52) episodes, sell their merchandise, then are quickly forgotten when the next moeblob premiers. Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

Characters like Kagura of Gintama, Radical Edward (who is more quirky/weird/fun IMO), Haruhi Fujioka of Ouran, and yes even Inoue Orihime of Bleach CAN be cute, but that isn't their sole character trait. These are all fully fleshed out characters, who exist to be more than eye candy. Kagura is a main character, and is probably one of the most well written characters I've ever run across; Radical Edward is comic relief but she's far from a useless crewmember of the Bebop; Haruhi does a wonderful job of subverting the usual shoujo heroine by being down to earth, logical and ambitious; and Inoue is a very human interpretation of the "damsel in distress" type that makes it clear that holding out for prince charming is not a very good game plan (eventually she will figure this out).
 
That's the thing.. I see people complain 'that's all they make' or 'the majority of a season' but I can't find them. Looking at the current season of 50 plus shows, the only show that description can apply to is A Channel. Nichijou is also about a group of cute school girls but it's so crazy and random I dont think it counts if were using KON as the basis.
 
It also has to do with the over-reliance of fanservicey charachter designs and situations. If I had to read the situation, I'd say that american fans are sick of overt fanservice within the show itself. IMO, in the past few years it's really been getting in the way of good storytelling.

Also, when is the last time we had bonafide adventure shows in both sci-fi and fantasy, as used to be so common? When was the last time we had a romance show without overt fanservice, and with a plot?

I got into anime because of the storytelling style of each episode really MEANING something in the overall narrative, and chrachters that built up over time and developed over the course of the show along with the plot, either by us learning about their pasts or new aspects being revealed about a character. Tell me, where are these shows now?
 
Ah, I'm too old for this kind of discussion now. Maybe I'm just getting senile in my age that I'm too lazy to contemplate the industry in any kind of depth anymore.

As a consumer, I just worry about what I can control. I personally think both western TV animation and TV anime have seen better days, but there's enough out there that can occupy me that I don't have to worry about the stuff I have no interest in. I don't care for Seth McFarlane's cartoons but nobody is forcing me to watch them or buy them. I like Futurama and I know I like it so I focus exclusively on that. I don't care for most superhero cartoons but I know Bruce Timm superhero stuff is always a cut above and worth a look so whenever he's got something brewing I always give it a try.

With anime, I know what I like and I can pick it out. The idea that "moe" is taking over anime doesn't really affect me since I don't watch those cute girls doing cute things shows anyway. I'm sure some of those types are quite good but some genres just aren't my thing. I know a lot of people will try a generic looking "moe" show hoping for something different but I don't worry too much about missing out on special stuff within genres I don't like. In the past year, I've purchased Dirty Pair TV, Case Closed, Casshern Sins, Corpse Princess and Darker than Black. I've enjoyed them all (though some vastly more than others) because those were shows I spotted that I knew I would enjoy on some level, even if they are generic on many levels (Corpse Princess and Case Closed being ultra generic examples of their respective genres) I really can't complain about cute girl high school/elementary school shows since I really didn't watch many of them nor did I ever feel like someone was putting a gun to my head to watch them. Were my personal pet genres--hardcore action, crime mystery, hardcore shojo, and romantic fantasy released in rather limited quantities over the past year compared to the aforementioned "moe" shows? Perhaps. But anime isn't my only hobby, and I would be perfectly fine only watching 5 anime TV shows in an entire year.

I just focused on what I could control and I put my money where my mouth was.
 
From this season I would recommend Toriko, Deadman Wonderland, Steins;Gate, Ano Hana, and Blue Exorcist to start with. Then you have staples like Fairy Tail, One Piece, Naruto, and so fort. Less serious shows we have Sket Dance and Maria Holic. Yaoi romance fans have Worlds First Love :D I suppose Seikon no Qwaser II wouldn't do for you since it's fanservice to the max, but a lot of stuff from the 90s people love had fanservice: Love Hina, Chobits, Tenchi, even Cowboy Bebop. Um, if I may ask if that stuff is so important how on Earth can you say My Little Pony of all things is better. Each show I listed I will guarantee has more plot and character development than that show. Ano Hana is my personal pick for anime of the season so far, it's a beautiful series
 
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