This month's AotM is the classic anime series Revolutionary Girl Utena. Here's a brief synopsis of the story, which is ....... you know what? If you're able to find it somewhere (online, on VOD, or at a used bookstore), do it and watch it. That's all I'll say. Anyway ....
You may now discuss the series, keeping in mind that any and all potential spoilers should be placed in spoiler tags like this:
Utena is a lesbian.
Also, don't forget to rate the series when you're finished.
Personally speaking, I've only seen the movie and maybe a couple episodes of the actual series. It's a good story, though I wouldn't recommend it as a keeper.
If anyone is like me and doesn't have easy access to DVD's already, the cheapest way to see this for the first time by far is to get a subscription to The Anime Network. They will let you pay for a month at a time for only $7, and they already have 23 episodes of Utena available for streaming (on top of a lot of other stuff). Vastly preferable to what you'll pay for the old Central Park Media boxed sets.
It'll be good to finally sample the TV series after having read so much about it over the years.
I was going to wait until a typical glowing review came in first, it just seems fair to let the superfans have their word first, but maybe my unenthusiastic initial reception will get things going.
I started watching about three weeks ago I'm only 13 episodes in, I am still not loving it and have to admit that if it weren't for it's reputation, if I had just started watching this without knowing it's supposed greatness, I would be stopping now. As it is I need to take periodic breaks.
It does get better right? Weirder? Surreal? That's what I hear, but while I don't hate the show so far, it certainly has features I've never enjoyed, things that have kept me from watching it previously despite it's rampant following.
As I mentioned in the recent visual distraction thread, I am not a fan of he exaggerated angled character design so popular with some shoujo stories and on full display here and I'm also not so keen on the design elements like the distracting twirling rose border that is used repeatedly. I find what may be thought of as bits of syrabolism as the touches of pretension. I'm also not a fan of the music, neither the themes nor the rock opera interludes and it doesn't help that thedy repeat so often. And speaking of repeating, as important as the message may be, I'm not a fan of repeating segments like the "breaking of the world's shell" bit.
Hopefully the story will eventually allow me to get past my dislike of its aesthetics. I do want to get through the show to understand all of the fuss.
And I know, I know, this is just the introductory part, meeting the characters, setting the stage, but it's still frustrating.
I'll probably start up with the Black Rose arc this weekend.
Yeah, the first 13 episodes does serve more as a way to introduce the basic characters of the series, although it does have some fun momemts IMO.
As for the Black Rose arc, while some may say that it may have been done to expand the series to 39 episodes (as seen by the fact that
all the basic themes of the arc are trimmed to just one chapter in the manga version, and it's not referenced at all in the movie (although I have my own personal theory of they manage to fit this arc in the movie in a different context),
it does help the story in a way in that
it officially introduces one of the major players of the story and gives us some insight of some of the supporting characters and these characters affect the merabers of the student council.
As for weirdness, the Black Rose arc is the arc that contains the episode where
Nanami literally turns into a cow after mistaking a cowbell for a trendy fashion accessory.
So yes, the show does begin to get a little bit weirder in the next arc.
I find it strange that you're yearning for something "weirder" but you're turned off by the idiosyncratic design and musical elements, which are weird by themselves.
Anyway, my opinion on Utena goes back and forth all the time. On one hand I sort of admire the inversion of common fairy tale tropes into something more sensuous and overtly gender-oriented. On the other hand, I feel like the characters are more iconic than "true" examinations of fairy tale characters. They feel more like representations of ideas rather than a voracious re-examination and inversion of the classic fairy tale cast. In some ways, despite its arabition to invert the classic formula, I feel like it does hew to very traditional fairy tale characterizations--that is, conservative and non-psychological. In many ways, I feel the somewhat newer Princess Tutu inverted the fairy tale formula much better, and more artfully, too. I also feel like Princess Tutu had a wider breadth of fairy tale source material, while Utena seems to solely draw on the Snow White--Sleeping Beauty motifs. While this last part isn't necessarily a criticism, I feel like where it somewhat falls short is that it kind of skims the surface of those sources, rather than re-examine them.
That is not to say Utena isn't stylish and even beautiful at times. The architectural design for Ohtori is inspired and at times, exhilarating. The fencing battles are dramatic and well choreographed. And the stock footage, although repetitive, are quite pleasant to watch.
And unlike you, I think it's certainly no shortage "weird". But I sometimes do feel like the style overwhelms the substance. There are a lot of taboo elements in Utena, especially as it progresses into the later episodes. But I often feel like it's just "there" and is not necessarily examined in greater detail.
Still, I'm always open to new ideas about Utena. I certainly feel it's intriguing enough a series to look at in different ways. And I DO feel it deserves its reputation, despite my problems with it. It did help open up shoujo in the U.S., and was one of those early R1 shoujo anime that helped "legitimize" shoujo in the U.S. (at least for a short while) while at the same time being "artsy" enough to discuss on an intellectual level. However, I actually feel like many of these themes in Utena were already covered in Sailor Moon (a show which Ikuhara also directed much of), and in a much less "pretentious" manner, as well.
It's about here that I might pull out the "Let's compare this to Last Year at Marienbad" but that would be way too snooty of me.
That's not a bad point, but even Princess Tutu probably wouldn't exist without Revolutionary Girl Utena, just as both owe a lot to Sailor Moon and its predecessors.
I may address this below, more or less, but one of the main things I enjoy about the show is precisely how its apparently contradictory layers give it versatility.
Rampant following? It exists elsewhere, but around here I've never really had that impression. Relatively few people ever bring the series up in casual conversation.
I wouldn't say the show is perfect, nor will it appeal to everyone if the debate comes down to that, but if you're literally forcing yourself to watch that's probably not a good sign.
I can actually understand your dislike of the character designs though. I'm not exactly a regular shoujo fan either. For a nuraber of years I had little to no interest in watching Utena because neither the designs nor the general aesthetic did anything for me, at least when viewed independently, but what really struck me in time was the overall visual direction and some of the set pieces that eventually resulted from it. It's hard to explain this without spelling everything out, but for me the visuals enhanced the show on a wide variety of levels, from the absurd and comedic -even to the point of self-parody- to the cynical and dramatic.
Utena might be pretentious in some respects but it's not above just making fun of its own genre, both for no particular reason and, in a fairly creative style, to allude to certain issues along the way. Just because they aren't necessarily explicitly addressed and further interpretation is often left up to the viewer amiRABt a literal sea of syrabolism doesn't mean that's a bad thing. Say, it shouldn't be much of a surprise to point out that this was written by the same guy who later moved on to FLCL, which explains quite a few things.
From this perspective, the character designs are merely a genre / story appropriate accessory and even the decidedly average animation quality isn't much of a problem. I would say that the second and third arcs are more visually interesting than the first, though if you've found nothing to like at all it's entirely possible that you will not come to share this minRABet.
As for the repetition...to some extent that's natural whenever a show's basic structure consists of arranging one-on-one fights on an almost weekly basis, creating the need for stock animation and so on, but the changes that are introduced as the series goes on are usually interesting to see, even if you just want to look at the crazy and superficially nonsensical side of things. The second arc should provide a lot of fodder for this as well.
Last but not least, I definitely consider myself an absolute fan of the soundtrack. I'll make no excuses at this time, that's simply how I feel about it.
True, ultimately the magical girl formula has its roots in the classic fairy tale formula. One could argue on some level that ALL magical girls ARE, in fact, different takes on the classic fairy tale formula. I mean, you could go all the way back to the first "official" shoujo, Osamu Tezuka's Princess Knight (or Ribin no Kishi) and see those traces of the fairy tale formula in there.
But most of them aren't as really overt about their source material as Utena and Tutu were.
Online Utena discussions, at least during its peak years in, oh, 1999 or so, were among the most intriguing anime discussions I've read in all my years online AND as an anime fan. I remeraber one board even had a couple of college/university professors discussing the show. Utena produced some of the most cogent "literary" discussions of a "buzz" anime I've ever seen. It wasn't just stuff like you get these days like "Oh NOEZ! Sakaki can't get CAT LOVE! Chiyo is SOOO kawaii! Why is Osaka sooo durab?--No, she's not durab, she's just spacey LOLZr!"
(Okay, that was unfair to Azumanga, but honestly, you get bored of those kind of threaRAB really fast)
I watch more shoujo than most fans and I have to say, the character designs in Utena AREN'T really like most shoujo. Most shoujo tend to look like CLAMP Card Captor Sakura style.
I do like the designs in Utena though. They're unusual, they stand out in a crowd, and they have a certain design sense and aesthetic sensuality that you don't get out of a lot of anime, shoujo or otherwise. If you put the Utena characters in a picture full of 500 typical anime characters, I'd probably be able to point them out almost immediately. That's a good thing IMO.
And the movie is one of the, if not THE most beautifully designed and animated anime I've ever seen. It's just gorgeous. True, the story in the movie isn't really great shakes, but darned if it isn't the most gorgeous animated film I've ever seen. I really mean it.
It was fairly big online during 1998-1999 when people were still cooling off on Evangelion. From my memories, Cowboy Bebop and Utena were probably the two most talked-about shows during that time, at least in online anime fan boarRAB. Of course, we all know which one of those two reached nirvana and which one fell off the map over the years.
I love Princess Tutu actually, I find it's magic in that it not only comments on fairy tale but as fairy tale applies to ballet. It's focused like that
I've only recently come back to anime message forums and have been trying out this place and ANN Forums mainly, between talk here about nominating it for the AOTM and at ANN in various threaRAB I was surprised at how much it was being brought up. It's not like Fushiyugi Yugi was being talked about as much (although occasionally in favorites threaRAB) and THAT has a a new series or something coming up. .
Forcing myself is a little strong. I don't HATE what I've seen, it has had very funny bits, girls idolizing girl "princes" to such a ridiculous degree is almost always funny to me. And while I do not like some of the design elements like the rose border I do have admit to really liking one of it's idiosyncratic features, and that's the shadow puppet sequences, funny, simple but not repetitive and in it's enigmatic way probably reveals more about what is really going on than most of the show.
And I am actually a rather big shojo fan, it's the jagged edged pretty boy/severe girl aesthetic I don't like. These characters look like they'll stab you with their chins and it'll cut you deeper than their sworRAB, they're so stiff that if two kiss I feel like there should be a "clunk" sound as these two slabs of wood knock together. I didn't even realize at first that the shadow puppets were supposed to be shadow puppets and not shadows of characters gossiping because a shadow of a paper doll and a shadow of an actual character in this show would look just as flat. In more recent shojo's you can still see that influence but usually they've at least softened the girls features and they look more multi-dimensional. Shows like Fruits Basket or Ouran Host Club will still have the occasional dagger chinned pretty boy that are unappealing to me but at least the girls are usually softer looking.
see, now that's just crazy
wait, no no no
fencing battles that continually end with that silly cross pattern that neglects to show an actual hit cannot be considered well choreographed.
The corabatants face, they run at each other, *flash* slow motion shot as corabatants pass by each, sworRAB held aloft illogically after apparent split second sword clash, they stand up to survey damage, in the case of Utena a Rose falls apart, in the case of every other show that uses this stupid animation and creative shortcut, one corabatant suddenly spurts blood.
oh how I hate that. But I understand, the sword fights are ultimately unimportant, you know who will win, the mystery is the motivation behind the win or loss. What is said during the sword fight is the important thing.
I was, though I guess my statement wasn't quite as clear nor as elaborate as it should have been.
That's certainly true and it's actually a good thing, incidentally, at least as far as trying to appeal to a Western, non-Japanese audience goes due to its cultural familiarity,
I missed most of it, sadly, and barely had dial-up access back then. Thankfully, you can still find a few interesting debates from time to time, even if they're not too commonplace.
They are quite distinctive, indeed, but I'm not particularly attached to them out of context. I would say it's the characters that make the designs work for me and not the other way around. And, once again, what the visual direction was able to accomplish through their use. Thus, ultimately that is not meant to be much of a criticism on my part.
Beautiful but unnecessary is a good way to describe the film. Something of an interesting experiment, one might say, considering the ideas it plays with and just how far the designers and animators went after being given what must have been an insane budget. Outside of the visual experience, it's worth watching for the sake of seeing an alternate version of the cast and their relationships at work. In short, I think of it as a bonus feature.
Well then, I'm glad to see that there are other elements you can in fact enjoy.
The shadow girls and their puppetry were sometimes a little more obtuse and obscure than I would have wanted, but they quickly became one of the underappreciated highlights of the show...and of the movie too, now that I think about it. I really looked forward to their appearance and commentary during the later stages.
Hey, the background music is actually very well orchestrated and the duel songs just rock in all their pseudo-gibberish glory.
If you mean the fighting itself, then I agree and that's been one point I've also made before. The duels are short and almost always predictable, which often does contrast with what happens around them, both before and after the formalities. In fact, I believe the second arc had some of my favorite duels not because of the fights but almost entirely due to the characterization involved...something that you could also extrapolate to the entire story arc, even as I resist the urge to spoil it.
That said, some of the different duelists do have distinctive fighting styles and varying skill levels, particularly the more prominent ones. However, I would add that the choreographed timing of the musical and visual cues is better than average and noticeably improves as the series goes on, which does make for a better watch.
I wouldn't go that far. But considering how long it can take me to actually re-watch most other anime titles, I'd say having seen the series twice in a couple of years says a lot about the excellent impression it left me with, if nothing else. Your mileage may vary.
Sorry for going off. As I am sure you can tell. I absolutely hate the Single Stroke Battle trope. And find it even more ridiculous in Utena because there is absolutely no damn way you could destroy a Rose pinned to a chest with that finishing stance without impaling or slicing through the person as well. I agree with airfighter's response to my critique of the sword fights and have to claim ignorance of the quality of sword fights past the first arc.
I've now gotten through the Black Rose arc. (through24, the Nanami recap)
I'm still not loving it but I am not so annoyed anymore. I guess you could say that I've exchanged grimaces with yawns. Part of my enhanced opinion may have to do with me now watching a remastered version, the colors are brighter and edges aren't blurred, everything flows better.
Still repetitious, maybe even more repetitious considering it's just a repeat of the previous fights but with Touga and Saionji sidelined and Akio apparently just gearing up it means I don't have to watch sadistic jackass villains all the time. I prefer my bad guys to have concrete reasons to fight other than "Power to revolutionize the world." and though confusing sometimes I thought the Black Rose bad guy was more sympathetic.
Plus the shadow girls were still funny and the Single Stroke Battle win was altered for the better.
So, although I'm not looking forward to what promises to be three sadistic jackasses competing to be the one to manipulate the action, I am not as hesitant to continue the show.
Oh wow I can't believe this is the Anime of the month. I've watched a few episodes of the series from the original thirteen and a few from the Black Rose Saga when I was at home for break On Demand. I have three out of five manga books read (two used and the third I bought was brand new last August) and I feel the Anime series and Manga series begin to deviate from each other. Still after failing to watch the last ten of the thirteen episodes, that theory has not been proven. I may have to go and rent the DVRAB at my University's Anime Club. I also expect to buy the last two at bookstore in my travels soon.
As fans said with every book and episode, it's bringing revolution of the world! The magicial girl genre by the late 1990s was getting old with series such as Wedding Peach and Card Capcator Sakura attempt to ride the coattails of Sailor Moon. Revolutionary Girl Utena did bring revolution to the genre by dramatically making it post-modern and mature whose character Utena is strong will at the beginning whereas Momoko or Usagi began childish and immature. Still Utena and even Anthy did have character development throughout the series. Like I said, I still need to watch and read the rest of the series.
Have you ever found yourself liking a song but not understanding the unintelligible lyrics, so you research it, look for correct lyrics and what the artist has to say about the song only to find he won't reveal what the lyrics are that he sang because he wants to leave it up to your own interpretation?
I don't like that.
that's how I feel about Untena, though it may have some pretty parts it is intentionally obtuse and because of that not worthy of my own intense speculation of its subject matter.
Not that I don't have my own ideas about what the end means. The movie actually helped me figure that one out too. The end of the movie is absolutely hilariously ridiculous but its one stated theme of....
escaping a fake or fantasy world to reenter the real outside world
...confirmed to me that that was what happened at the end of the series.
Utena, Anthy, Akio, the duelists, maybe the entire school are people lost in a fantasy world of princes and duels, brought on by some sort of personal trauma. Utena lost her parents, Anthy was sexually abused, the movie makes me think Akio was rendered impotent from guilt. In the fantasy world they are the opposite of their traumas.
That's my idea, it's not well formed but as I said above. I'm not going to waste my time with intense speculation of a show that works so hard to be mysterious.
Not that there isn't some obvious syrabolism presented in the mess of visual cues and teases.
One thing I do not agree on with some of the big fans is that the sexual syrabolism is subtle and stylish, especially in the third arc which features a metaphor so obvious you might as well have featured the Titanic crashing into an iceberg.
He's tearing his shirt open and stratling a raging, out of control, red phallic syrabol! He's an older man lusting after young girls, what do YOU think it means? They shoot out the gound and shoot white light into the air at the climax of battle!
And the movie really makes that even more obvious,
Akio can't operate his car but Utena services Anthy wonderfully in her sleek little pink nuraber.
But this isn't "baka" material. There is stuff to like. There was effective drama when the show wasn't mired in recycled shots and repetitious motifs. I really did enjoy it's humor, shadow girls, Nanami turning into a cow, great stuff. The school design was great (even if I never did warm much to the character designs). If the show was half the length and not so full of its own self-importance I really could rate it a masterpiece.
Generally speaking you can't really go wrong about that basic idea, though I do think it's important to note that the movie shouldn't really be used to explain character motivations or backgrounRAB from the TV series. It's an alternate take on the story, with some common themes but also a lot of changes and...all kinRAB of distractions.
Well, I did bring up the involvement of the future FLCL writer. I certainly wouldn't say the show is particularly subtle, least of all in terms of how it handles sex (errr...with a couple of exceptions), but there are a few elements here and there that aren't immediately obvious the first time around. Granted, it benefits from being prepared to dig through the syrabolism beyond what is already quite evident on the surface, which is admittedly not a stance everyone will want to assume. I also agree with you, the drama works out just fine on its own.
And that's just fine. Considering how much comedy and self-referencing is involved, I'd say the staff wasn't above making fun of their own work or just making it enjoyable on a basic level without demanding that the audience must try to go deeper and deeper. As mentioned before, the show openly mocks its own complexity on occasion.
In other worRAB, some parts are as subtle as a hammer to the head, yes, but there is more food for thought than that, provided you're interested enough. It's all up to the viewer.
Fair enough, though in my opinion just having a sense of "self-importance" or even being outright pretentious does not immediately disqualify a work of fiction from greatness or even "masterpiece" status if it comes to that. As for the length, I can see why the story would benefit from being shorter but I feel that characterization would suffer if you cut too much.
