Anime and sexism/feminism

Main difference being, Beat, is that those shows you cited as examples are terrible shows that would be just as terrible with suggestive content.

Meanwhile, otherwise quality shows that can be just as entertaining without fanservice get anchored with it, which in turn limits the potential viewerbase.

Implying that shows without fanservice are boring and up their own butts just underlines the logical fallacy of your argument.

Granted, animation production teams can find a balance, it's just easier to go one direction or the other sadly.

Obviously you find people who don't like fanservice whiny and pretentious, but please save the anecdotal rhetoric for another thread.
 
I think it's a matter of portraying them in a tasteful way. You can be sexy without behaving and dressing like a skank. Some people seem to be under the impression that skanky IS sexy, and those people are neckbearRAB.

Meanwhile, I'm a married adult, and though I enjoy da wimmins as much as the next guy, I'd rather not feel like I'm watching extremely softcore porn every time I want to enjoy a nice action-adventure show.
 
The main problem about that is those tend to be the only things that these shows focus on, or at least the majority. Sailor Moon worries about her weight, her beauty, and similar stuff, but what does Naruto worry about? Saving his frienRAB, beating the bad guy, and so forth. Yusuke? Saving the world, making sure he doesn't get expelled by some jerk teacher, and so forth Basically, while guys get to deal with a lot of problems, girls seem to be pidgeonholed into specifically girl problems (make-up, fashion, etc) for whatever reason. It's also present in non-Japanese shows like Totally Spies, Barbie, and so forth. There's a lot of shows with boys that aren't very 'masculine' (like the hero obsessing over trucks, wrestling, power tools, and so forth) but very few shows with girls that aren't 'feminine' (make-up, clothes, beauty, so forth)

Indeed, it's not that simple, I suppose I should have clarified my point a bit more. Ultimately we would also have to look at our society and the gender roles we create within them. Girls are emphasized for their beauty and sexuality in our society, so obviously our media is going to reflect that. It might seem hypocritical to criticize the shows for those issues in that regard, but I also advocate that our society should also not place emphasis on a woman's beauty (if the make-up and fashion industries were burned to the ground, it would only be beneficial). So, yeah, Sailor Moon wears a skimpy outfit, because it's a reflection of the women in our society who are also taught to do the same thing. The problem ultimately lies with the gender roles in our society. Though I will disagree with the comment that men are unable to judge something as well as women in terms of femnist point of view. After all, if women are raised on certain gender stereotypes, then they probably wouldn't see anything wrong with them. Same with men. So I think it has to do with perception rather than sex.
 
I think there are various angles that play into the problem. If you start from the actual programme, you'd probably find some redeeming items. However, elements of all three shows are openly pandering to and inviting otaku. Lucky Star probably gets off somewhat lighter for openly satirising the fans, including all the moments that say 'Knock it off, you're too damn creepy'.
The other two elements are fans themselves and merchandising. The fans may take certain ideas to new, strange heights (a certain character or outfit is almost certain to become huge on the fan art scene) and similar behaviour. However, the merchandise angle only encourages them. This is one of those angles where even a show like Lucky Star starts to lose points because in an official capacity the show is actively encouraging otaku to have these ideas, even if they're wildly out of character. The characters stop being clearly defined and challenging and just become effective mannequins to hang a fantasy off of. It holRAB up worse when you compare to other countries. I don't recall Avatar Fire Nation Beach Fun Day trading figures. This merchandise is an official acknowledgement of just treating these characters as barely defined, instead making them just a pleasing visual to hang any traits you desire off of. That's not liking a character at all and I have to wonder if it extenRAB to relationships with real people.
 
Well here's the thing, the way I interpret it, Miazaki's goal was infact to do something different, it's just he did it so well that despite the differences, the creepy fanboys still latched onto the characters with exactly the same zeal and bizare obsession, moreso even than they did with characters who were actually designed to illicit such a response.

It wouldn't surprise me if he's more than a little bitter about it too, I mean, it would be sort of like calling 'A brave new world' a heart touching comming of age story that displays the human condition ultimately triumphing over adversity. If it was me I'd be thinking... 'You Eff-ing Otaku! How could you miss the point so badly!'

Then of course there's the problem that while on the one hand he might dispise a portion of his audience for being so durab, he can't argue with the truck loaRAB of money they pay him to make more of it which would nodoubt be further erabittering.
 
Well it is more sexist then a lot of American shows just in how outright and blatent some of the sexism is. Which is just a reflection of Japanese society.

As to has it ever affected me watching an anime. The answer would yes and the anime would be Ai Yori Aoshi because Aoi was just so over the top submissive and 'perfect ideal Japanese wife-type' that I just stopped watching the series after awhile.
 
Why do female characters always have to be attractive in the first place? You can have neutral looking men like Naruto or down right ugly men like Kuwabara, but when's the last time you saw an unattractive female charector ANYWHERE? I guess Moribito was kinda plain but, come on.
 
Re: Fanservice: Why do I get a "methinks thou dost protest too much" air in this thread? Have you even seen Black Lagoon, or are you just making assumptions? They hardly focus on Revy's sexuality at all. In fact, IIRC, I don't even think she has a nude scene, which is quite a rarity. She's the kind of woman who would rather shoot someone than seduce them. And despite the fact that her outfit isn't the most conservative in the world, the direction in the show wasn't on her assets but on her dark personality, and how that came out in gunplay and elsewhere.

Just one more reason why Black Lagoon was one of my favorite anime series this past year.
 
On the topic of GL, yes, Yoko going around in a bikini has no purpose other than fanservice. However, you could also argue that Kamina going around topless is fanservice as well.
 
I agree with you, Boris. I've been watching the first season boxed set, and outside of the shortshorts that crawl up da butt, she's too damn masculine in the way she carries herself, and the way her scenes are directed, she's definitely not there clearly for the smut-factor.
 
Haruhi is a representation/personification of the entertainment industry at large: She's aware that sex sells and uses it to gain new merabers for the club, or at least generate interest. Even though the club itself has nothing to do with sex, the sight of Mikuru or herself in a bunny suit entices the masses. So I guess the show could be argued as sexist in that it still shows skin either way, but ultimately it's self-aware and satirical, plus it doesn't rely on this sort of thing in the show itself, so I didn't have a problem with it.
 
Which, in my opinion, is a real shame for those that want to be bold and try something new :/

I've been finding the discussion really interesting, and I'm going to throw in a new tangent for those that want to discuss it

Just out of curiosity, in terms of moe and other issues mentioned in this thread, has there been a detectable change in anime over the years? If so, do you think the situation has gotten better? Worse (though I guess you have to say what you mean by 'better' etc) or has it stayed relatively the same?
 
People who have seen Koihime Musou (and by people, I mean DemonLorRABhugo and I, so far), may also realize at the designs for some of the characters are a tad unusual.

I will show them if I have the time, so wait a bit.
 
no need to exaggerate that much, there can be lots of fan service in those nice action-adventur shows, but soft core porn levels, no there isnt, there's got to be lots of actual sex for that claim to be made (thats what porn is), and anime ive seen like that do not fall into the category of "nice action-adventure" shows.

(gosh, iv got to learn to write better)
 
The thing is, the creators haven't shyed away from the shadier elements of the series. Through things like the magazines, games, figures and spin oRAB they've actively erabraced it. It's a tricky thing to comment on because I don't want to say "Aha! You like this series so you're obviously a creep!". That's a hurdle us decent folks face because of this steadily growing trend perpetuated by other fans and the industry. But the fanservice elements exist and rather than keep their integrity in how they used them, the creators have just indulged the fanboys. The fact you can get bunny girl figures of Kyon's sister speaks volumes. These aren't even simple cheap gashapon machine toys, I'm referring to large sized expensive adult aimed collectibles...that's just wrong.
 
Slayers went out of its way to make Lina the main character. So they went and changed the novel to give it more of an appeal to females. So I don't buy that "she has a personality defect, OMG sexist!" If a character doesn't have a personality flaw, they're a Mary Sue. And there are more than enough of those types in American cartoons. A lot of them become nigh unwatchable as a result.

Apparently in the original set of pre-anime novels, Gourry is the narrator, and he fully admits to feigning ignorance to piss others off on multiple ocassions. Not to mention he hides a critical plot point from the others because he thought it was THAT obvious. I'm pretty sure that characterization would have the feminists up in arms.
 
The only women I can give props to without looking like a forced sex object yet a heroic independant women is Kallen Statfield. Because she's the only female character I know who looks like a hentai character and yet has noble and honorable intentions yet can kick as much ass as any man alive without being a damsel in distress. Too bad her infatuation with Lulu was nothing more than that, and it made her into a slut to but aside from that pertaining to this topic. Kallen is the definitive femist standard.
 
Like I said, there's a line between being attractive and being forced into a chain-mail bikini for the viewers. Melfina may not use her sexuality directly to get what she wants, but there's a specific reason why she's naked in the pilot tube (to appeal to the hormone filled otaku) and obviously it's a suppose to be a part of the appeal of her character. Same with why Aisha/Faye other women dress the way they do.

I've watched the first episode, and there was quite a few conveniently place camera angles to show off her body in that outfit. She may be "masculine" in attitude but that's sort of a given how she's the "bad girl with guns" type of character. That attitude is part of the appeal, and like before, there's also a reason she's dressed in the skimpiest clothes possible. I guess if I was going to quote a blog post about female characters, I'd pick "Her ability to shoot a gun was so the film’s advertisers could put her on a poster wearing a skimpy outfit with a big gun between her legs."
 
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