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Anime and sexism/feminism
- Thread starter Farmall Boy
- Start date
K
>>>Kyle<<<
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I suppose my general feelings are basically the same as they were months ago, when this issue first surfaced.
Which means I've seen a large variety of shows and can definitely appreciate strong female leaRAB who have a lot of character development, assume relatively progressive roles and are subjected to little to no fanservice, such as Youko Nakajima from The Twelve Kingdoms or, for instance, Utena Tenjou from Revolutionary Girl Utena, which is clearly a plus and something anime could use a lot more of. At the same time, I can also manage to get through shows that are far less admirable in this respect, if there are other aspects that interest me. I'm not blind or indifferent, but can still be flexible in this regard, at least up to a certain point.
Why? Well, I would have to say that a fairly sizable portion of anime tenRAB to be somewhere in between, giving female characters some degree of depth and attention to go along with their obvious sexualization and exploitation. Essentially, it's case of trying to have it both ways instead of making it a strictly either-one-or-the-other affair. Is that still painfully sexist? Yes, which is unfortunate and I wouldn't argue otherwise, but the point is it's not impossible to like said characters and the shows they appear in for reasons other than their physical attributes.
Just as there are characters who, no matter how attractive their designs are, remain transparently uninteresting in every other way.
For example, after watching the new Space Adventure Cobra OVA a week or two ago, my feelings were rather mixed. Was it fun? Yes, for a ridiculously over-the-top science fiction / pulp adventure, very much so. Was its portrayal of women admirable? Absolutely not. In fact, it's one of the worst I've seen in recent memory and literally had me rolling my eyes every other scene. That didn't happen to me with Gurren Lagann, Code Geass or even something as blatant as Godannar, whatever else might be said about them. Perhaps the comparison is a bit unfair, since Cobra is just the revival of an old franchise, but being retro doesn't make it any better.
Which means I've seen a large variety of shows and can definitely appreciate strong female leaRAB who have a lot of character development, assume relatively progressive roles and are subjected to little to no fanservice, such as Youko Nakajima from The Twelve Kingdoms or, for instance, Utena Tenjou from Revolutionary Girl Utena, which is clearly a plus and something anime could use a lot more of. At the same time, I can also manage to get through shows that are far less admirable in this respect, if there are other aspects that interest me. I'm not blind or indifferent, but can still be flexible in this regard, at least up to a certain point.
Why? Well, I would have to say that a fairly sizable portion of anime tenRAB to be somewhere in between, giving female characters some degree of depth and attention to go along with their obvious sexualization and exploitation. Essentially, it's case of trying to have it both ways instead of making it a strictly either-one-or-the-other affair. Is that still painfully sexist? Yes, which is unfortunate and I wouldn't argue otherwise, but the point is it's not impossible to like said characters and the shows they appear in for reasons other than their physical attributes.
Just as there are characters who, no matter how attractive their designs are, remain transparently uninteresting in every other way.
For example, after watching the new Space Adventure Cobra OVA a week or two ago, my feelings were rather mixed. Was it fun? Yes, for a ridiculously over-the-top science fiction / pulp adventure, very much so. Was its portrayal of women admirable? Absolutely not. In fact, it's one of the worst I've seen in recent memory and literally had me rolling my eyes every other scene. That didn't happen to me with Gurren Lagann, Code Geass or even something as blatant as Godannar, whatever else might be said about them. Perhaps the comparison is a bit unfair, since Cobra is just the revival of an old franchise, but being retro doesn't make it any better.
I've only seen the first episode of GL and didn't find it that interesting, so I suppose she might be different later on. The emphasis her breasts and body sort of turned me off to her, though.
It's all about balance, and that's where most writers seem to struggle. Most of them treat it as an 'either-or' situation when it's not.
Speaking of flaws, I felt W.I.T.C.H. was one of the best series to handle that aspects. There were a group of baddies, the Knights of Destruction, who fed on four negative emotions that people exhibited (hate, anger, fear, and pain) and would become more powerful around people who displayed these emotions. This led to the girls being forced to learn to control these emotions (or flaws, if you will). However, while they mostly learn to channel out those feelings around them, there's still plenty of times throughout the series where they slip up and exhibit these emotions. They never permanently eradicate these emotions from their behavior because, after all, they're just human and are obviously unable to shut out emotions entirely. It's okay to have flaws, as long as they're realistic and handled well. Though the thing with W.I.T.C.H. was that they were characters first and girls second. Their gender was unimportant and wasn't shoved in your face in some "girl power" attempt, and that's probably how more characters should be written if it yielRAB similar results. To this day, I still find Will one of the best female leaRAB in an action show.
This is something I agree with ten times over. There's a distinct line between simply having an attractive female and a female clad in a metal bikini dual-wielding guns and fighting hordes of bad guys in a pit of jello.
It's all about balance, and that's where most writers seem to struggle. Most of them treat it as an 'either-or' situation when it's not.
Speaking of flaws, I felt W.I.T.C.H. was one of the best series to handle that aspects. There were a group of baddies, the Knights of Destruction, who fed on four negative emotions that people exhibited (hate, anger, fear, and pain) and would become more powerful around people who displayed these emotions. This led to the girls being forced to learn to control these emotions (or flaws, if you will). However, while they mostly learn to channel out those feelings around them, there's still plenty of times throughout the series where they slip up and exhibit these emotions. They never permanently eradicate these emotions from their behavior because, after all, they're just human and are obviously unable to shut out emotions entirely. It's okay to have flaws, as long as they're realistic and handled well. Though the thing with W.I.T.C.H. was that they were characters first and girls second. Their gender was unimportant and wasn't shoved in your face in some "girl power" attempt, and that's probably how more characters should be written if it yielRAB similar results. To this day, I still find Will one of the best female leaRAB in an action show.
This is something I agree with ten times over. There's a distinct line between simply having an attractive female and a female clad in a metal bikini dual-wielding guns and fighting hordes of bad guys in a pit of jello.
myspiderungoliant
New member
Apologies if I misread your intentions as being condescending then. I'll have to take your word for it and believe it as a "lighthearted" jab.
Yeah, after looking at her again, I agree. She really isn't that desexualized after all.
But is merely showing "skin" really sexist? Yes, Yoko is obviously "fan-service" if you will, but is she being humiliated, demeaned or disempowered in any way? I mean, if you concentrate solely on her you might forget that Kamina and Simon parade around the show half naked as well. There's certainly something to be said for those gleaming male pecs and abs for the female viewers. Would that be sexist as well? If so, how come I don't hear about that too?
We could probably discuss this for hours and not come to a complete conclusion.
Yeah, after looking at her again, I agree. She really isn't that desexualized after all.
But is merely showing "skin" really sexist? Yes, Yoko is obviously "fan-service" if you will, but is she being humiliated, demeaned or disempowered in any way? I mean, if you concentrate solely on her you might forget that Kamina and Simon parade around the show half naked as well. There's certainly something to be said for those gleaming male pecs and abs for the female viewers. Would that be sexist as well? If so, how come I don't hear about that too?
We could probably discuss this for hours and not come to a complete conclusion.
swymmer2004
New member
Very true; if you alienate your audience, you won't have any funding to make your project. That's unfortunate.
Still, I'm sure there is some leeway to work with here.
You don't have to be a complete sexist pig, nor do you have to be a bra-burning feminist.
In fact, its in the middle ground where you will find the more realistic and sympathetic characters.
I think if you just write a simple, complex character (is that an oxymoron?) realistically, a wide spectrum of audience will come to accept it.
Still, I'm sure there is some leeway to work with here.
You don't have to be a complete sexist pig, nor do you have to be a bra-burning feminist.
In fact, its in the middle ground where you will find the more realistic and sympathetic characters.
I think if you just write a simple, complex character (is that an oxymoron?) realistically, a wide spectrum of audience will come to accept it.
If the author didn't want to perpetuate stereotypes, he had two choices: include the stereotype, but make it a source of conflict (which could include internal conflict even if Naomi decided not to bring it up with Raye explicitly-- she could at least be shown to have been bothered by it, or SOMETHING), or just not include the stereotype at all. It had no particular plot or character significance, and the work would have been essentially the same if it had been omitted altogether.
You speculate that she is "trapped" or that the relationship was unhealthy in some other way, but there's absolutely no other evidence of that. It would be one thing if this were depicted as an unhealthy relationship: in that case, even without Naomi herself actively saying, "Hey, this is wrong," the message would still get across. But the exact opposite is true: the way their relationship is portrayed, the clear implication is that expecting the woman to turn off her brain and focus solely on the home the minute she gets engaged is perfectly proper and natural. And I'm sorry, but that's just plain messed up.
It's not a matter of "changing" the characters around, it's a matter of what makes sense in the context of everything else that has been established about those characters. There is no indication that Naomi is the sort of woman who would put up with that sort of thing, and every indication that she's the sort who would not.
I can buy that the author may have intended for Raye Penbar to be kind of a sexist jerk. Lord knows it made me feel a lot better about it when
But the intention was clearly for the audience to sympathize with Naomi and want her to succeed, and given the ass-backwarRAB way her character is portrayed, that's pretty hard to do.
Misa I have less of a problem with, honestly, because she's clearly a sociopath. She's not supposed to be any kind of model of how a woman should act. We might sympathize with her, but if we do, we pity her because we know that her devotion to Light is unhealthy and will never be rewarding or fulfilling to her. And we know that Light is just using her, because Light uses EVERYONE. The relationship is shown to be unhealthy, and so even without a character explicitly stating, "Hey, this is messed up," the meaning is implicitly understood by both the author and the audience.
It would've been nice to have had a balance to that, an example of an intelligent, competent woman in a healthy relationship, and clearly Naomi was meant to be that, but just as clearly, she fails.
You speculate that she is "trapped" or that the relationship was unhealthy in some other way, but there's absolutely no other evidence of that. It would be one thing if this were depicted as an unhealthy relationship: in that case, even without Naomi herself actively saying, "Hey, this is wrong," the message would still get across. But the exact opposite is true: the way their relationship is portrayed, the clear implication is that expecting the woman to turn off her brain and focus solely on the home the minute she gets engaged is perfectly proper and natural. And I'm sorry, but that's just plain messed up.
It's not a matter of "changing" the characters around, it's a matter of what makes sense in the context of everything else that has been established about those characters. There is no indication that Naomi is the sort of woman who would put up with that sort of thing, and every indication that she's the sort who would not.
I can buy that the author may have intended for Raye Penbar to be kind of a sexist jerk. Lord knows it made me feel a lot better about it when
Light offed him.
Misa I have less of a problem with, honestly, because she's clearly a sociopath. She's not supposed to be any kind of model of how a woman should act. We might sympathize with her, but if we do, we pity her because we know that her devotion to Light is unhealthy and will never be rewarding or fulfilling to her. And we know that Light is just using her, because Light uses EVERYONE. The relationship is shown to be unhealthy, and so even without a character explicitly stating, "Hey, this is messed up," the meaning is implicitly understood by both the author and the audience.
It would've been nice to have had a balance to that, an example of an intelligent, competent woman in a healthy relationship, and clearly Naomi was meant to be that, but just as clearly, she fails.
Borntofarm
New member
What? Just looks like a regular fanata-OH MY GOODNESS.
damienbfree
New member
Yeah, the whee! was supposed to be just silly, like the whole discussion was a rollercoaster.
I'm curious, what do you people think of Soul Eater from a feminist perspective? It has a female lead, female big baRAB and a solid female supporting cast (for the most part), most of which have quite a bit of depth. Considering it's a shonen, I find it very impressive in terms of how progressive it is, and I'm wondering if I've just set my expectations too low or if that's actually the case.
One Pissed Off Chimp
New member
This is the truth. There's a good reason that the best works generally don't face claims on either side. Writing people is the best way to avoid writing a stereotype.
xe12ladeeda
New member
I've heard that as well
Unfortunately I haven't seen enough of it to make a good judgment on it either way.
That is something that has been argued for the portrayal of women in comics as well, however, there are a few things to say about that line of thinking, as other people have already pointed out
http://girl-wonder.org/girlsreadcomics/?cat=22
There is a difference between idealisation and objectification. I think it can be said that often, males are portrayed with characteristics that other guys find ideal: Strength, courage, bravery, sometimes intelligence
Girls? They are portrayed with characteristics that are also considered 'ideal'.. for guys
I think that there are not many cases where female idealized with characters that other female readers would admire and desire. So instead, whilst male characters are those who the readers want to be, the female characters are the ones that the reader wants to do
That isn't to say that sexy = bad. But in my opinion, there isn't anything inherently good about sexiness either.
http://www.4thletter.net/2009/05/sexy-is-good/
Unfortunately I haven't seen enough of it to make a good judgment on it either way.
That is something that has been argued for the portrayal of women in comics as well, however, there are a few things to say about that line of thinking, as other people have already pointed out
http://girl-wonder.org/girlsreadcomics/?cat=22
There is a difference between idealisation and objectification. I think it can be said that often, males are portrayed with characteristics that other guys find ideal: Strength, courage, bravery, sometimes intelligence
Girls? They are portrayed with characteristics that are also considered 'ideal'.. for guys
I think that there are not many cases where female idealized with characters that other female readers would admire and desire. So instead, whilst male characters are those who the readers want to be, the female characters are the ones that the reader wants to do
That isn't to say that sexy = bad. But in my opinion, there isn't anything inherently good about sexiness either.
http://www.4thletter.net/2009/05/sexy-is-good/
well my perosnal openion on the subject is this..While its true there arn't enough Role-model Female characters in anime..There our a decent amount of Strong & Intelligent ones..This is however still no excuses for the Ridiculosly Growing nuraber of Fanservice in anime/manga (wich is why i am somewhat dissapointed in Seasons II of the Rosario+vampire anime & manga, I liked it because there was an equal amount of fanservice & story..But now its 75% famservice & only 25% story!)....I mean As a young american male I admit I find nothing wrong with a little bit of fanservice..but i admit it gets ridiculous at times. I think overall though anime is trying its best to get good ratings..But lets face it Fanservice & steryoTypes of women our what sale...Yes it may be Sexist..But sadly all networks worldwide careabout these days is ratings!...& if it bothers you theres a few animes that arn't that way...Mostly the ones that our aimed at kiRAB though....(Like hamtaro, or Kirby.)
Giant Turtle For Fireball
New member
True, but it should also be recognized that, perhaps through self perpetuation, it often turns out to be "ideal" for women, too.
Take Mukuro from Yu Yu Hakusho. Unbelievably strong and pretty badass, but also very visibly disfigured. Having spent a depressing amount of time reading Yu Yu Hakusho fan fiction, she has almost less popularity among the female fans than the male ones, and tenRAB to get pushed aside in shipping fics/battles in favor of someone more attractive (or yaoi) despite a fairly canonical relationship with resident badboy fangirl magnet, Hiei.
It probably stems from the idea of it being what men want, but then is perpetuated by some women favoring what men want because men want it. Chicken or the egg, and all that business.
Take Mukuro from Yu Yu Hakusho. Unbelievably strong and pretty badass, but also very visibly disfigured. Having spent a depressing amount of time reading Yu Yu Hakusho fan fiction, she has almost less popularity among the female fans than the male ones, and tenRAB to get pushed aside in shipping fics/battles in favor of someone more attractive (or yaoi) despite a fairly canonical relationship with resident badboy fangirl magnet, Hiei.
It probably stems from the idea of it being what men want, but then is perpetuated by some women favoring what men want because men want it. Chicken or the egg, and all that business.
Naadirah R
New member
In my mind, the people who would complain about a woman being 'too masculine' are the kind who probably also don't support equality. They're really seated in their gender roles and dislike it when people don't conform to society's sexist norm. Someone might complain about a woman needing to stay in the kitchen where she belongs and stop fighting bad guys, and while it would be a complaint, I also hope no one would actually treat it as a valid complaint and instead would just treat it as sexist thought from a misogynistic person. So, yes, assertive females might be met with hostility, but equality will always be met with hostility, and we shouldn't pay any mind to what those people think. If I ever get a show, I'd write the hero as a person first, and pay no mind to their gender (though they will be a female, just for the sake of proving a point), and if people call her 'unladylike' then, well, I'll ask what makes that a bad thing.
The difference between Moe-tan/Ruri from Nadesico/Kodomo no Jikan fanservice and Godannar/Tenchi Muyo/Cutie Honey fanservice may also be a key element in this mix as well. It's one thing when you're objectifying adults, it's another when you objectify kiRAB. The latter will never have any acceptance real in the west, and for good reason, especially in the context a lot of those series deal with it, namely the fanservice, idolatry and moe-ness is the reason for the shows existence. The plot and story don't actually matter.
On that note, context has a ton to do with it as well. There is a huge difference between Nabokov and well, almost every loli anime I've ever seen, and in fact, the shift in context is large part to do a lack of objectification. Part of what puts something like Tenchi Muyo into a different level than Kodomo no Jikan isn't just the cast, it's the rest of the story if not the entire series universe is very developed and well-thought out. It's very clearly not excuse to be risque, but in fact risque-ness is just a sucker play to get you to check out the story and world. In a sense that's part of what a series like Gunslinger Girl does - you think it'll lolixploitation garbage, but the writing is actually top notch and the setting is adeptly depicted. The other trick that Gunslinger Girl and works like Nabokov's Lolita and Koi Kaze use is taking the objectionable content seriously - it's not there to titillate, it's their to make a point to the viewer, either directly on the content or to make a philosophical point via a metaphor.
Personally, I've found that this decade's had much more of a dichotomy in regarRAB "intelligent content" and "fan pandering," but ultimately, it's probably making both sides of the argument happier. You don't have to put up with empty panty-shots and pervy camera-angles in your philosophical dramas, and when a show is going for a lowest common denominator fanboy audience, it can ride that unfettered by grander ideas.
Though, shows like Michiko to Hatchin manage to fuse fanservice and storytelling to fantastic enRAB. Who would have thought a bodacious babe and a textbook Ghibli heroine would be such an amazing corabination.
On that note, context has a ton to do with it as well. There is a huge difference between Nabokov and well, almost every loli anime I've ever seen, and in fact, the shift in context is large part to do a lack of objectification. Part of what puts something like Tenchi Muyo into a different level than Kodomo no Jikan isn't just the cast, it's the rest of the story if not the entire series universe is very developed and well-thought out. It's very clearly not excuse to be risque, but in fact risque-ness is just a sucker play to get you to check out the story and world. In a sense that's part of what a series like Gunslinger Girl does - you think it'll lolixploitation garbage, but the writing is actually top notch and the setting is adeptly depicted. The other trick that Gunslinger Girl and works like Nabokov's Lolita and Koi Kaze use is taking the objectionable content seriously - it's not there to titillate, it's their to make a point to the viewer, either directly on the content or to make a philosophical point via a metaphor.
Personally, I've found that this decade's had much more of a dichotomy in regarRAB "intelligent content" and "fan pandering," but ultimately, it's probably making both sides of the argument happier. You don't have to put up with empty panty-shots and pervy camera-angles in your philosophical dramas, and when a show is going for a lowest common denominator fanboy audience, it can ride that unfettered by grander ideas.
Though, shows like Michiko to Hatchin manage to fuse fanservice and storytelling to fantastic enRAB. Who would have thought a bodacious babe and a textbook Ghibli heroine would be such an amazing corabination.
mr.shawn37
New member
There are actually quite a few feminists who complain that the standard assertive, poweful female is really just written as a "guy with boobs," i.e. a character that's written as though they were a man but gender swapped at the last moment. Their view seems to be that, by only considering female characters acceptable when they behave in a traditionally masculine manner, it's still sending the message that "feminine = bad."
It's fascinating though. That's why I'm posting so much on it. I find observing how people respond to gender portrayals really interesting. I guess I've been playing more devil's advocate than displaying too much of what I believe in personally. I can't slam the Hammer of Righteousness down because I'm certainly guilty of certain probable sexist values myself, but I think it's plausible to question exactly what we're responding to right now in regarRAB to anime, or entertainment in general.
So much of what we believe to be "sexist" or "feminist" is formed by what we've been told to believe. All this talk about role models, Japanese culture, passive/active characters, male-female differences, physical sexualization...all relevant to be sure but are certainly issues that can be questioned on various levels.
We like to think that we in the west are "progressive" on this issue but there are certainly plenty of examples that show us to be just as bad and sometimes worse than a culture like Japan in different ways when it comes to gender issues. Like, is American culture's obsession with the fake, over-endowed, plastic surgeried woman any less disturbing than Japan's obsession with the youthful and cute? So many issues at work here. What do shows like American Idol and The Hills and The Simple Life show about our so-called "progressive" society when it comes to gender? Why is it that the American media is ten times more likely to humiliate a female celebrity than a male one?
So much of what we believe to be "sexist" or "feminist" is formed by what we've been told to believe. All this talk about role models, Japanese culture, passive/active characters, male-female differences, physical sexualization...all relevant to be sure but are certainly issues that can be questioned on various levels.
We like to think that we in the west are "progressive" on this issue but there are certainly plenty of examples that show us to be just as bad and sometimes worse than a culture like Japan in different ways when it comes to gender issues. Like, is American culture's obsession with the fake, over-endowed, plastic surgeried woman any less disturbing than Japan's obsession with the youthful and cute? So many issues at work here. What do shows like American Idol and The Hills and The Simple Life show about our so-called "progressive" society when it comes to gender? Why is it that the American media is ten times more likely to humiliate a female celebrity than a male one?
At least it's not Moribito. (J/k. Don't kill me!)
But then, isn't that the issue? There's no middle ground. Your female character is either a bore who isn't sexualized, or so oversexualized it becomes downright offensive.
As previously noted, most writers can't write women. They write an ideal that tries so hard not to offend it fails to be interesting, or this insultingly offensive fetish fuel.
I'm going to go ahead and say that Queens Blade has no issue with what it wantsa to be, and that's pure T&A without anything redeemable. This is beyond defense, even for someone who considers a lot of the "that's sexist!" talk a bit oversensitive.
But then, isn't that the issue? There's no middle ground. Your female character is either a bore who isn't sexualized, or so oversexualized it becomes downright offensive.
As previously noted, most writers can't write women. They write an ideal that tries so hard not to offend it fails to be interesting, or this insultingly offensive fetish fuel.
I'm going to go ahead and say that Queens Blade has no issue with what it wantsa to be, and that's pure T&A without anything redeemable. This is beyond defense, even for someone who considers a lot of the "that's sexist!" talk a bit oversensitive.