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Why was the train company, Siemens, allowed to win the contract, for those UK trains?
- Thread starter Spike
- Start date
The question should be "When and why did British trains stop being competitive?"
Because in the very beginning, first half of the 19th century, British made trains dominated the world market. And still in the early 20th century British steam locomotives were quite impressive, and also many continental sleeping cars of Wagons-Lits were made by Metro Cammell.
Today Great Britain has become an importer for a lot of things including railway rolling stock, but rather than shutting off the borders, it should be analyzed why British products are not as good as those elsewhere (which is obvious if they don't win the tender).
Siemens is an international company with headquarters in Germany, the trains are made in Germany and Austria. Those aren't 'low-wage countries', Britain could compete with them, why doesn't it?
For historical reasons, the standards such as loading gauge, train control systems or electricity supply are different on the British railways, but obviously that is not stopping companies from elsewhere from producing good products for the British conditions.
Because in the very beginning, first half of the 19th century, British made trains dominated the world market. And still in the early 20th century British steam locomotives were quite impressive, and also many continental sleeping cars of Wagons-Lits were made by Metro Cammell.
Today Great Britain has become an importer for a lot of things including railway rolling stock, but rather than shutting off the borders, it should be analyzed why British products are not as good as those elsewhere (which is obvious if they don't win the tender).
Siemens is an international company with headquarters in Germany, the trains are made in Germany and Austria. Those aren't 'low-wage countries', Britain could compete with them, why doesn't it?
For historical reasons, the standards such as loading gauge, train control systems or electricity supply are different on the British railways, but obviously that is not stopping companies from elsewhere from producing good products for the British conditions.
Your rant implies that you don't want to know the real reason Siemens won the contract. You have pre-judged it.
It has nothing to do with the Tories, and it's not just "money" - it's about getting the right product to meet the specified need. The specification was set out by transport experts (not politicians) under the previous Labour government and the contract was managed under EU law by UK permanent civil servants. It would have cost £billions to change it by the time the current government came to power.
Basically the contract was asking for "whole life" provision and maintenance of the train fleet. This means building and supplying the trains themselves and then building and running maintenance depots for the next 20 or more years. Siemens can do this and have a proven record to show for it - even in the UK (for example, they have built a super new train maintenance depot in Southampton). This will provide hundreds of long term highly skiiled (and paid) NEW jobs. Bombardier just could not match this service or the price.
Siemens will bring jobs to the UK to keep these trains going. These will be 20 or 30 year jobs, not just the 4 year jobs that the train building contract has.
Also, like many things, the trains will have Siemens on the maker's name plate but large numbers of component parts will be made in the UK. These trains are nothing like the "Thomas the tank engine" ones. They're pretty much computers on wheels, and WE in the UK are good at making electronic components (and suspension units etc). You can't really tell these days exactly where many things are made.
For example: there are thousands of "Japanese" cars in the UK which have actually been built in England from parts made in England, Wales and Japan. Significant Volkswagen components are made in the north of England, etc. Unless you took the trouble to look into these things you wouldn't know where they really come from.
Incidentally, the bulk of the UK-owned car industry collapsed in the 1960s and 1970s under Labour governments.
It would hardly be "patriotic" to spend twice as much of taxpayer's money on buying the trains from Bombarider and then spending twice as much again to keep them maintained (by different people) over their working life.
Siemens are also in the lead to provide the replacement trains for the Eurostar fleet. This has upset the French because they wanted their own manufacturers to be used. But that won't happen for exactly the same reasons as apply to Crossrail.
The people you should rant at are the Canadian directors of Bombarider who are running the company in such a way that the English management team can't possibly meet the price, quality and service standards of Siemens.
If you care about British jobs then look at all the "non-patriotic" foriegn objects in your house: camera, hi-fi, television, cooker, furniture (ever been to Ikea?), car, bike, motorbike, decorative lights, carpets, clothes (shirts, shoes, trainers) etc. Almost everything can still be provided by UK makers if you're willing to look for them - and pay the price. Are you going to blame the government for this?
It has nothing to do with the Tories, and it's not just "money" - it's about getting the right product to meet the specified need. The specification was set out by transport experts (not politicians) under the previous Labour government and the contract was managed under EU law by UK permanent civil servants. It would have cost £billions to change it by the time the current government came to power.
Basically the contract was asking for "whole life" provision and maintenance of the train fleet. This means building and supplying the trains themselves and then building and running maintenance depots for the next 20 or more years. Siemens can do this and have a proven record to show for it - even in the UK (for example, they have built a super new train maintenance depot in Southampton). This will provide hundreds of long term highly skiiled (and paid) NEW jobs. Bombardier just could not match this service or the price.
Siemens will bring jobs to the UK to keep these trains going. These will be 20 or 30 year jobs, not just the 4 year jobs that the train building contract has.
Also, like many things, the trains will have Siemens on the maker's name plate but large numbers of component parts will be made in the UK. These trains are nothing like the "Thomas the tank engine" ones. They're pretty much computers on wheels, and WE in the UK are good at making electronic components (and suspension units etc). You can't really tell these days exactly where many things are made.
For example: there are thousands of "Japanese" cars in the UK which have actually been built in England from parts made in England, Wales and Japan. Significant Volkswagen components are made in the north of England, etc. Unless you took the trouble to look into these things you wouldn't know where they really come from.
Incidentally, the bulk of the UK-owned car industry collapsed in the 1960s and 1970s under Labour governments.
It would hardly be "patriotic" to spend twice as much of taxpayer's money on buying the trains from Bombarider and then spending twice as much again to keep them maintained (by different people) over their working life.
Siemens are also in the lead to provide the replacement trains for the Eurostar fleet. This has upset the French because they wanted their own manufacturers to be used. But that won't happen for exactly the same reasons as apply to Crossrail.
The people you should rant at are the Canadian directors of Bombarider who are running the company in such a way that the English management team can't possibly meet the price, quality and service standards of Siemens.
If you care about British jobs then look at all the "non-patriotic" foriegn objects in your house: camera, hi-fi, television, cooker, furniture (ever been to Ikea?), car, bike, motorbike, decorative lights, carpets, clothes (shirts, shoes, trainers) etc. Almost everything can still be provided by UK makers if you're willing to look for them - and pay the price. Are you going to blame the government for this?
Timbo is here
New member
Because the previous government, Labour, set up the bidding process for the contract in such a way that they could win it - simple as that.
Wouldn't surprise me if the Tories set this up so they could have more propaganda to use against the EU. You need to take a closer look at the anti-EU bias of the media - TRY and find a story about anything the EU has done that's good (clue: they forced clear labelling on alternative medicine, capped roaming charges for mobile users and made it illegal to charge a driver a higher insurance premium simply for being born with a penis)
Needless to say it's not patriotism when we exploit children in China and Indonesia...
Needless to say it's not patriotism when we exploit children in China and Indonesia...
Timbo is here
New member
Because the previous government, Labour, set up the bidding process for the contract in such a way that they could win it - simple as that.
Wouldn't surprise me if the Tories set this up so they could have more propaganda to use against the EU. You need to take a closer look at the anti-EU bias of the media - TRY and find a story about anything the EU has done that's good (clue: they forced clear labelling on alternative medicine, capped roaming charges for mobile users and made it illegal to charge a driver a higher insurance premium simply for being born with a penis)
Needless to say it's not patriotism when we exploit children in China and Indonesia...
Needless to say it's not patriotism when we exploit children in China and Indonesia...
Wouldn't surprise me if the Tories set this up so they could have more propaganda to use against the EU. You need to take a closer look at the anti-EU bias of the media - TRY and find a story about anything the EU has done that's good (clue: they forced clear labelling on alternative medicine, capped roaming charges for mobile users and made it illegal to charge a driver a higher insurance premium simply for being born with a penis)
Needless to say it's not patriotism when we exploit children in China and Indonesia...
Needless to say it's not patriotism when we exploit children in China and Indonesia...
Because they bid the lowest price against the tender specification. How else should tendering for bids work?
In the same way British companies win bids for infrastructure projects in mainland Europe. The rules are fair, the lowest bidder wins.
After proven corruption charges a few years ago where Siemens were fined 100s millions of Euros and some executives went to prison, you'll find that as a result Siemens are now one of the most open and transparent companies in the world. There wouldn't be the faintest wiff of corruption on this deal.
In the same way British companies win bids for infrastructure projects in mainland Europe. The rules are fair, the lowest bidder wins.
After proven corruption charges a few years ago where Siemens were fined 100s millions of Euros and some executives went to prison, you'll find that as a result Siemens are now one of the most open and transparent companies in the world. There wouldn't be the faintest wiff of corruption on this deal.
Because they bid the lowest price against the tender specification. How else should tendering for bids work?
In the same way British companies win bids for infrastructure projects in mainland Europe. The rules are fair, the lowest bidder wins.
After proven corruption charges a few years ago where Siemens were fined 100s millions of Euros and some executives went to prison, you'll find that as a result Siemens are now one of the most open and transparent companies in the world. There wouldn't be the faintest wiff of corruption on this deal.
In the same way British companies win bids for infrastructure projects in mainland Europe. The rules are fair, the lowest bidder wins.
After proven corruption charges a few years ago where Siemens were fined 100s millions of Euros and some executives went to prison, you'll find that as a result Siemens are now one of the most open and transparent companies in the world. There wouldn't be the faintest wiff of corruption on this deal.
Because they bid the lowest price against the tender specification. How else should tendering for bids work?
In the same way British companies win bids for infrastructure projects in mainland Europe. The rules are fair, the lowest bidder wins.
After proven corruption charges a few years ago where Siemens were fined 100s millions of Euros and some executives went to prison, you'll find that as a result Siemens are now one of the most open and transparent companies in the world. There wouldn't be the faintest wiff of corruption on this deal.
In the same way British companies win bids for infrastructure projects in mainland Europe. The rules are fair, the lowest bidder wins.
After proven corruption charges a few years ago where Siemens were fined 100s millions of Euros and some executives went to prison, you'll find that as a result Siemens are now one of the most open and transparent companies in the world. There wouldn't be the faintest wiff of corruption on this deal.
Wouldn't surprise me if the Tories set this up so they could have more propaganda to use against the EU. You need to take a closer look at the anti-EU bias of the media - TRY and find a story about anything the EU has done that's good (clue: they forced clear labelling on alternative medicine, capped roaming charges for mobile users and made it illegal to charge a driver a higher insurance premium simply for being born with a penis)
Needless to say it's not patriotism when we exploit children in China and Indonesia...
Needless to say it's not patriotism when we exploit children in China and Indonesia...