T3 and New Universal keyboard, BAD combination!

.goLd.

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Heads UP!
I killed my T3 by buying the new PalmOne Universal Wireless Keyboard and then installing it's driver on my Tungsten T3.

I suggest you wait for a driver update before purchasing this item (current BAD driver 9/22/2004 77,790 bytes).

It's so bad that I had to disassemble my T3 (voids warranty), disconnect battery to wipe RAM. Others have same BAD results with this UW keyboard on their T3 PDAs. See post at rabroad for more information.

Warning: If this also happens on the T5 device, then one's only solution would be to send item back to PalmOne for repair. Because the RAM on the T5 is non-volatile. But I've not heard if this problem happens on the T5.

FWIW - It DID work when I had NOTHING but keyboard.prc loaded on T3. But otherwise keyboard is unusable on T3.

The thread mentions PalmOne is working on the problem...
 
Long time no See, Genoahaus!!

Because I am getting a SECOND T3, I thought strongly about a keyboard (never bothered with one).

Thank God I read this . . . . think I'll pass. That would be great, wouldn't it? 2nd brand new T3 fried by a driver.

Man, what are they DOING up there??!! Try the RedBull, Programmers??!!
 
Yeah - I finally upgraded to T3. My HE330 was really starting to have several annoying hardware related problems. I'd go into detail, but that would be a bore.

My upgrade choice was because the T5 does not have the feature set of the T3, and because it won't work with my GPS (unless somebody comes out with a serial cable - does it support serial???), so I decided on the T3.

[RANT]
It was my choice over a year ago, but decided to wait when the OS6 info started to leak. I cannot believe PalmOne is so slow getting OS6 devices out. And they take the ostrich option on WiFi, don't they know it would help sell devices to the business community?? Bluetooth is a nice network backup, when not near a hotspot. But WiFi is so MUCH better - esp for people like me with WiFi at home and work.

I think the T5 is a nice, kinda ho-hum, device. IMHO PalmOne is starting to sink, and I don't know if they can build a better ship or bail enough to keep afloat. Kinda reminds me of the supercompuer maker SGI (Silicon Graphics).
[/RANT]

If there is an update to the UW KBD driver I'll post a new reply, as for now I'm keeping the keyboard even though I cannot use it. I fortunately bought it this month, and the retailer counts this as Xmas season with returns until Jan 31st. :D

If no new driver, it goes back...

----

I've been lurking, but not posting as I have very little time these days. But I felt this issue was too important not to post.

----

I have been thinking of getting tealmaster/teallaunch to replace the easylaunch hack I used to use. But have not got that far in my upgrade tests. I put D2G with keyboard first.
 
I did a little testing over the weekend. And, to me, it does not appear to be an application conflict with the UW KBD driver.

First I broke my apps up into groups by letter, and decided to test a group of apps at a time. Initially I tried loading each group, leaving the other working groups on the PDA.

I first load group A (only A on PDA), then B (A & B on PDA), then C (A, B, & C on PDA) - CRASH - so C must have bad app (which later turned out to be a wrong assumption).

The I started over at D (only D on PDA),..., I CRASH when I loaded J (D thru J on PDA).

But here's where my testing assumtions break down (are invalid).

I load A,B, and D groups, which I think have no conflicts, and I get CRASH - WSOD.

Further testing shows, no crash for AB, C, or D. But I crash with ABC or ABD. NOTE: Here I used a shorter notation - letters touching are loaded at same time.

To me this says that the driver is COMPLETELY at fault and it IS NOT a driver/app conflict, but instead it appears to be more sinister. My WILD GUESS is that the UW KBD driver has problems when more and more apps are in RAM (for some unknown reason). Possible RAM corruption? Possible OS corruption? other??

I'm going back into the holding pattern of waiting for PalmOne to release an update. :(
 
I've got it working on mine fine. Did you download the driver from P1 or use the one that came on the CD.

I will admit that the original one on the CD with the wireless keyboard that I got last year - would explode the device - but I downloaded one version 2.2p works fine.

Let me know, cause I think there is even a version 2.3 out but not sure.
 
I think you're talking about the OLD "Wireless Keyboard".

I'm talking about the NEW "Universal Wireless Keyboard", that works with POS & PPC. It has 5-rows of keys, SKU No: 3169WW, and uses a DIFFERENT & NEW driver (see above for date and size, sorry didn't capture version info). This keyboard is the one that was announced when the T5 was announced last month.

This problem DOES NOT (AFAIK) affect the OLDER 4-row wireless keyboard or the UC keyboards (called Ultrathin [4-row] & Portable [5-row])...

The driver (for UW KBD) that comes on CD is the same as the one for download from PalmOne. It's not been updated yet. And, I believe, this driver is incompatible with the old keyboard designs.
 
Oops...forgot about that new Universal keyboard.

I'd always be suspect of such hardware especially since the driver is dated 9/22/04 and considering the T5 wasn't out yet, how do they do it.

Also, I'm surprised you had to diconnect the battery on the T3. Wouldn't a hard reset remove the driver out of RAM or am I missing something.....regardless that's bad news.
 
You would think, they (PalmSource/PalmOne) would design the hard reset to ALWAYS work. Read the rabroad link if you want to see what others have done (some returned units to store, some sent back to P1, and others have disconnected the battery).

But now that I HARD CRASHED my T3, I remember HARD CRASHING my PIII & HE330. But they have removable batteries, so it was easier to recover.

On the T3, one has to pop the slider (paperclip in the two holes on the back). Carefully slide down until battery cable exposed, then carefully disconnect from circuit board.

WARNING: If you pull too hard you'll break the hotsync ribbon cable (you'll pay for repair :( - abuse not covered by warranty). And opening case WILL void your warranty (if you tell P1 you opened your T3 :) ).
 
That moorning I installed this driver on my T3 and now it ligths like a ligther. It?s a thing I don?t undertand. genoahous , did you solucinate the problem discharging the PDA?. That driver don?t corrupt the ROM files?. Because my warranty expired a mounth ago, and i?m not dispose to pay anything for a thing that PALM developers did wrong. Of course, i?m going to denounce them.
Thank everyone
 
I just received the November newsletter from TealPoint software that discusses quite a bit of information regarding crashes and what causes them on the Palm. Although quite long I posted it here since it may help others on the board to understand "Crashes, Errors and PalmOS".

fnagle

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

@Teal Newsletter - November Issue
Crashes, Errors and PalmOS
Your Guide to a Healthy and Stable Palm
PalmOS handhelds have become immensely popular largely due to their stability and ease of use. Sadly, though, in the end, Palm handhelds are really computers, designed and created by people, running software written and designed by other people, all of whom are decidedly imperfect. So, inevitably, from time to time, Palms still occassionally crash. Knowing the reasons why, and how to prevent them, is key to keeping your device as stable as possible and maximizing your handheld experience.

VIRUSES, WORMS, AND OTHER NASTIES

In the PC world, an epidemic of transmittable nasties have made viruses nearly synonymous with computer instability. At the same time, a booming industry has appeared protecting our desktops from catching the sniffles. But what is a virus anyway? Viruses, put simply, are programs that can replicate themselves, spreading onto other machines via infected disks, documents, and emails. They tend to make PCs unstable either by design or by the invasive methods they use to secretly spread.

So, when a Palm crashes, many assume it too must be a virus. The truth is, on the handheld, a crash is much more likely due to occur due to an invasive virus checker than an actual virus. Today, no Palm viruses are known to be in circulation, probably because current devices are not connected enough to allow an infection to spread very well. In fact, a careful read of the documentation of one virus product seems to indicate that the only viruses the product really stops are a few test viruses the manufacturer made themselves, calling into question the value of even installing a virus checker in the first place.

UPGRADING YOUR HANDHELD

In reality, a large number of difficulties actually come when upgrading to a new handheld. PalmOS 5 is internally radically different from PalmOS 4 and earlier versions, and many older programs can't run correctly under PalmOS 5 without modification. Even worse, some apps cannot even be upgraded because they require functionality that PalmSource "voted off the island" when they "upgraded" PalmOS. Thus, when upgrading your handheld to OS5, be sure to check with program manufacturers to see if you'll need to upgrade your software first.

SYSTEM RESETS

Sometimes, a crash is frustratingly difficult to track down because it's not obvious which program is at fault. For instance, after a system reset, PalmOS calls every program in main memory to perform initialization. If one of those programs has a bug or incompatibility with the operating system, it can crash or lockup the device with no hint of it being responsible. Worse yet, if the reset were originally prompted by the installation or activation of another program, the crash might falsely imply that the innocent new program were responsible.

To get around a reset-induced crash, perform a safe boot, sometimes called a "warm" reset. To do this, pinhole-reset the device while holding down the page-up button. PalmOS will start up without calling any applications, allowing you to use the device. You can then selectively delete suspect apps, performing a normal reset afterwards to confirm if the deleted apps had been the cause of the problem. Note that drivers and some system functionality will be disabled when running in "safe" mode, so you'll want to reset again after your tests to restore full functionality to your handheld.

HOTSYNCING

Occasionally, problems occur during the HotSync process, particularly on OS5 handhelds. This is because the PalmOS5 HotSync application is unique amongst PalmOS applications, being compiled natively for the ARM processor. There is an ugly bug in the PalmOS PACE emulation layer which causes hacks, drivers, and background apps to crash if they call certain system functions during HotSync.

Unfortunately, there's no quick fix for this with a program whose manufacturer has not already found a workaround. At worst case, you may need to manually disable certain hacks or drivers during HotSync to prevent a crash or conflict.

Another issue, though, while not a crash, is more common. The PalmOS 5 HotSync app is very sensitive to timing, and if you are running certain background apps and drivers, it can be flakier than the crust on Mom's apple pie. In most cases, Palm's Portable Keyboard driver is responsible, making HotSync operations fail, especially if any other background apps are running. Again, this tends to falsely implicate other applications you may have just installed. If HotSyncs are unreliable, lose connection, or won't start, make sure to try disabling the Palm keyboard driver application, if present.

Lastly, crashes during HotSync can occur when Palm Desktop is trying to install apps. Many folks already know that trying to install new Hack or background app when an older version is still running usually preceeds a frantic search for a paperclip, pushpin, or other poke-worthy reset device.

What most people don't know, however, is that files can get "stuck" in your Palm Desktop install folder, causing HotSync to try to install these files again and again every time you HotSync. When they do, you get a crash every HotSync after turning on that Hack or background app. This usually occurs because files you've installed have their "read-only" property bit set, possibly because they were copied from a CD-Rom or other protected device. To fix the problem, find the "Install" folder under your device name in the Palm Desktop directory. Delete the stray files there after turning off their "read-only" status for those files.

STACK SPACE AND MEMORY

The overwhelming majority of crashes, however, is due to running out of stack memory. This usually shows when running hacks, drivers, pop-up programs, and other "background" applications.

Normal, "foreground" applications are ones that you run from the system launcher. When you start another program, a standard foreground application exits and has no residual functionality at all after you exit them. Background applications, on the other hand, are different in that they can still run when you are inside other applications. Apps of this type include hacks, keyboard drivers, popup launchers, text input programs, some dictionaries, and security apps.

The Stack memory that these use is a precious pool of RAM that is shared by the foreground app and all running background apps. The default system stack is only about 5k. Because PalmOS was not designed with multitasking in mind, the amount of stack memory is determined solely by the current foreground application. Thus, it's up to background apps to each use as little stack space as possible, and each foreground app to allocate more stack space than it needs and thus voluntarily "play nicely" with background apps.

The sad thing, though, is that there's no absolute guideline for how much stack space a background app can use, or for how little extra space a foreground app can leave. No matter how "friendly" all the participants are, there will always be a finite limit to which and how many background apps one can run.

If you suspect a stack space crash, look for the following warning signs:

1) Stack memory overflows tend to result in unpredictable, sometimes spectacular crashes requiring a hard reset.

2) Specific error messages are rare, being a simple "Fatal Exception" if they appear at all.

3) Stack crashes usually go away when you turn off one or more background apps. Often, people take this as a sign that one particular app is defective. However, more often it is the *combination* of multiple apps overflowing the stack together which is really the problem.

If the crashes occur only when inside a single foreground application, you can often fix the problem using TealMover, whose "info" screen lets you increase the stack space requested by that app. The app must not be in ROM or flash memory, and the change is permanent unless you manually change it back or reinstall the app. Increasing the stack by 1k or 2k is usually sufficient.

If, on the other hand, crashes occur while in many different apps, the problem is probably due to the total stack space requirements of multiple background apps. If so, your options are more limited. Under PalmOS 3 or 4, you can use TealMemBrain to globally boost the stack space for all foreground apps. The effect is temporary, only lasting while TealMemBrain is running. But under PalmOS 5, you're sadly outta luck, and just have to choose to eliminate one or more background apps and test by trial and error until the system is stable again.

CONCLUSION

And so ends our little foray into the frightening world of technical support. I hope you've enjoyed the trip, and have learned a little too. The next time you're in contact with a customer support conscript, you now know some of the issues they battle every day. Kept in perspective, your handheld has no more issues than any other device, operating system, or manifestation of technology. However, understanding what few quirks that do exist can be a key to truly maximizing you handheld owning experience.
 
In light of some people on the TealTalk forum being "farmed" for email harassment, it was good of you to provide this. Do you notice it's all INFORMATIVE without SALES PITCHES? God, I love that company.

I have temporarily CANCELLED the group membership in TealTalk, however, and there haven't been any postings in a week anyway (I think TPoint are out of town for a conference?).

In any case, it's good information for all, without getting "weird emails" along with the newsletter. They're changing the way it's set up to try and combat this, by the way (email harassment).

Also got some information on "open and read only databases" on the T5 from another developer - man alive, that thing's got bugs up the wazoo . . . keyboard or no keyboard.

I've been reading keyboard driver nightmares on this forum for months - have never elected to have one and figure with the "other shortcut methods" I use for text entry, it's not worth it. But a lot of people write PARAGRAPHS of stuff all the time and a keyboard is supposed to be a "normal add-on." Sorry so many have had trouble and especially with the "new one."

"New" is becoming a bad word with P1.
 
I should mention that I am STILL using the "Palm Portable Keyboard" that I bought for use with the M505. Have used it without problem with:

M505, M515, Tunsten T and now the T3. Knock on wood, I've not encountered any problems with it or other apps. Part of this may be that when I'm through using it, I disable the Keyboard program. I think the "older" unit wsa built with a little more "quality".

fnagle
 
Thanks for the post. I myself already know all that stuff, but I'm sure it will help others.

But please note that it DOES NOT cover the SUPER RARE HARD CRASH that this keyboard driver causes.
To recover from SUPER RARE HARD CRASH, all I did was disconnect the battery. It does not corrupt the ROM (AFAIK), just the RAM.

As T3 was not designed to have battery replacement, a few seconds without battery wipes RAM. My older devices (PIII, HE330) that on SUPER RARE occasions would hard crash, require the battery to be disconnected for several minutes - to allow time for the backup capacitor to discharge (backup for the battery). The T3 does not have backup capacitor.

To disassemble, follow my steps below, but before doing that look at the following sites for better descriptions of procedure (you can stop before removing hotsync cable glue step):
http://www.pspilot.de/ppptun3/ppptun3.html#T2a
http://www.gethightech.com/Merchant...re_Code=GHT&Category_Code=_tungsten_takeapart

It appears that the easiest way to disassemble T3 is to press a bent paper clip into the two small holes on the slider mech and CAREFULLY slide down until you see battery connector (white block with red and black wires). Then take a jeweler's screwdriver (flat blade) or equiv, and GENTLY pry from top or bottom - one of the sides 90 degress from the side where the wires enter. Make certain battery connector is disengaged from mating connector on circuit board. Wait a few seconds, then with fingernail, GENTLY push battery connector back into mating connector on circuit board (you should feel a slight click). Now for the hard part, align the slider mech and reassemble (takes about three hands :) ).

WARNING: Use common sense, don't do this if you have fumble fingers! It's easy to break the T3 while the case is loose (think egg [T3] vs brick [finger/screwdriver]). You've been WARNED.

NOTE: In the rabroad thread, I think somebody mentioned that P1 said they will repair T3 (out of warranty) for free. But be sure to mention you just bought the UW KDB, installed driver, and launching driver messed up your T3. YMMV
 
I'm a firm believer in "do it yourself and what the hell," but it sounds like Genoahous's new handle should be "Marcus Welby!"

How's that for dating myself??!!

You do any sidework "extra $$ jobs" . . . . like BRAIN SURGERY??!!

"Just make sure the rods are all in the way BACK IN the water, before re-connecting the REACTOR."

4 minutes later . . . . . :

"How come everyone's dead and the trees are humming?"
 
Thanks for the complement... I loved watching that show, some (most?) of the time it was corny (but not as bad as "I Love Lucy", which made me I.L.L).

FWIW - My mom says I've always been one to take things apart. When I was five I took apart a toy gun - pieces all over house, and my mom thought - Okay, that toy is gone. Next time she checked on me I had it back together and was playing with it again.

My take apart rules:
1. don't take it apart, unless it's broken or you want to learn something. And if it's to learn something it has to be a good reason.
2. always keep a road map of how to re-assemble, as you're taking it apart. If you cannot do this DON'T take it apart.
3. if you don't plan on fixing it, you may violate rule #2. But let the owner know this before disassembly starts!

OH! Almost forgot my final rule:
4. I don't do anything nuclear (reactors, or munitions).
 
OKAY keyboard driver 1.05 is now working for me. YEAH!!!

The conflict was the PalmOne Phone Link Update of 11/29/04. The ROM version works with my phone, so I'll just ignore this update for now. When will P1 get their act together? or is the ship sinking?
 
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