RO: Palestinian jailed for being Palestinian

[Laudenum]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/7901025/Palestinian-jailed-for-rape-after-claiming-to-be-Jewish.html

Basically, a very naughty Palestinian pretended to be Jewish to a girl he met in the street, and they had sex like ten minutes later.

She found out he is an Arab, and he is going to jail.

For rape.

Basically she is such a racist that it is rape for her to have dirtied herself by having sex with an Arab.

1980's South Africa is chortling.

 

[Diogenes the Cynic]

If you can't answer the question, just say so.

 

[Babale]

I think the suspicion is that if had been Jewish and married, he would not have been arrested for a philandering one night stand while if he had been Palestinian and single he would have been.

Partially true. If he was Palestinian and single, the woman may or may not have sued, depending on what exactly pissed her off. If he was Jewish and married-Same thing. But, if she would not have slept with him if he was married and Jewish and she did sue him, he would have gotten convicted too. If he was Palestinian and unmarried, and she sued him, he would once again be convicted. If he claimed he was a giant-squid hunter, and the woman had earlier made a pledge to never sleep with anyone who has not killed at least 5 giant squid, he could very well be convicted again. (Or she would go to a mental assylum).

I won't. Just make sure you make a list of all the truths he told also, you know, for the sake of a balanced perspective, n that.

Er, what? If I am accusing someone of murder, should his defence attorney show all the people that the murderer has ever met that he didn't kill? Should a thief's attorney show all the items the thief has seen that he did not steal?

No? Then why is it different for liars?

 

[FinnAgain]

I did answer it. You're a hate filled bigot, you made it up, you can't provide proof because the only proof you have is that you hate Israelis so the hypothetical you made up sounds good to you.

What exactly is confusing you?

 

[Really Not All That Bright]

Right, which is why this wasn't rape, and the judge is a moron. She had given consent, and did not withdraw it until some time after they were done with the fuckin'.

 

[DSeid]

... You really don't see any reason to think that this is anything other than a neutral application of the law by the prosecutors and judges? It might be that this was in fact a neutral application of teh alw but you don't see anything about how the case progressed from real rape to the current charge that makes you scratch your head a bit or at least want to ak a few more questions?

Indeed I see no reason to think that this is anything other than a neutral application of a flawed law. My head scratching goes to the point that the man settled with this as a plea bargain. He admitted to it, and agreed to the 18 months sentence.

Now I readily admit that there have been instances that count as systemic discrimination against Palestinians in Israel. Thing is it has usually been the Israeli court system bringing the government to task for those instances. The Israeli court system is pretty damn good and even handed. If this man admitted to "rape by fraud" then he did at least that. I wonder more if how this went down was that the woman was given a really rather typical rape victim treatment - "your word against his word, no proof, say it was consensual and we avoid having to have you and your sexual history raked over the coals in court and he still goes to jail on this lesser charge." But I don't know that any more than you know any of what really happened.

 

[Damuri Ajashi]

What I'm 'boggling' about is how you are taking one incident - highly criticized within Israel at that - and, generalizing the hell out of it, claiming it proves Israel is an apathied society.

Yeah the naturalization law is highly criticized too. I'm not saying all Israelis are bigots I'm saying the society has institutionalized racism against Palestinians. You don't think that there were South Africans that criticized apartheid?

Fact is, I don't think the 'rape by deception' law make sense.

and in all likelihood of people like you were writing and enforcing Israel's laws, I would have no reason to compare it to South Africa.

Fact is, who people choose to have sex with is still something they are *allowed* to be "racist" about. A woman (or man) can be totally irrational on this score, and as 'racist' as any KKK member in voluntarily decising to have sex with someone - if they don't like Blacks, or *only* like Blacks, or Arabs, or Jews, or whomever - that's their business; and tricking or fooling 'em by pretending to be who you are not is at least ethically repugnant (though as i said, I disagree with it being a matter for criminal law).

But it is criminal in Israel and the law is being applied to this particular case.

The same law is on the books in many other places, including some US states.

And if it enforced in a racist manner then it would be racist.

What the judge said is that people who lie to get sex are "smooth tounged criminals". How exactly is that some sort of proof of racism in society?

Because:

What if this guy had been a Jew who pretended to be a Muslim and had sex with a Muslim woman. Would he have been convicted of rape? The answer is: of course not.

Perhaps this guy is full of shit but if he is then why is there so much criticism of this case in Israel?

What a "former Israeli minister official" says has no bearing on what the Judge ordered.

Yeah but he has some idea of the purpose and prosecution of the laws in Israel.

I do not agree that if a Jewish guy pretended to be an Arab to screw an Arab woman, that an Israeli judge would inevitably find him innocent based on this law (particularly if this precedent survives appeal!)

Do you think that the Jewish guy calling himself Omar in a Palestinian bar would have been the first guy that they prosecuted for this sort of thing?

Fact is, there are many things wrong with Israeli society, but their judiciary often rules in ways that would surprise those who automatically assume Israel is evil.

I agree that the high court does its best to be as fair as possible but they can only be as just as the laws they interpret. If the laws allow for institutionalized prejudice then the high court must do so as well. I have nothing but respect for Jewish legal scholarship (not all Jewish legal scholars but the scholarship, it comes from millenia of tradition of thinking about the law and our legal tradition has incorporated much of that).

Then Damuri, after his admission that he's a reflexive anti-Israeli bigot (which is my fault, of course) who has to fight not to simply shoehorn any new information into his "I hate Israel!" narrative, spews:

When do I admit that I am an anti-Israeli bigot (BTW, when you say anti-Israeli bigot, do you mean anti-semite?)? How am I an anti-Israeli bigot?

How am I any more an anti-Israeli bigot than you are a pro-Israeli, anti-Palestinian bigot?

I don't hate Israel, I hate its policies, "hate the sinner, not the sin" and all that.

Of course, the actual facts are that, in Israel, it's a crime to get sex by lying about who you are.

And do you believe that this law is being enforced blindly (in a "justice is blind" sort of way)?

I get it, you're a raging anti-Israel bigot and you're willing to lie and imagine whatever the fuck you want as long as it reinforces your bigotry.

Yes!!! Raging anti-Israel bigotry is EVERYWHERE, the only possible reason anyone could possibly criticize Israel is because they are bigots.

 

[Really Not All That Bright]

It's not racist. It IS fucking stupid, and Israeli lawmakers should be ashamed of themselves, as should the judge.

 

[FinnAgain]

Er, what? If I am accusing someone of murder, should his defence attorney show all the people that the murderer has ever met that he didn't kill? Should a thief's attorney show all the items the thief has seen that he did not steal?

No? Then why is it different for liars?

Don't try using logic on Ivan. He's one of our posters who is an actual anti-Semite (the usual suspects can now go bonkers on schedule while ignoring that Ivan actually does hate Jews). The last time a bunch of his quotes were posted talking about how Jews love money and the Mossad is global Judaism's secret terror weapon, and what have you, his answer really was something along the lines of "...well, look at all my posts where I'm not saying racist things. So don't call me a racist."

He probably would argue that for anti-Israel liars, we also have to look at all the times they weren't lying in order to demonize Israel.

 

[Jimmy Chitwood]

OK. I'm not really sure how to avoid just going back and forth over the same point, but those are unsustainable ways to define both rape and consent, and that approach ignores the entire conceptual framework of fraud.

 

[Bryan Ekers]

Well, that seems patently unfair, but I'm glad the matter received national criticism, as the article states.

 

[Babale]

They can post with as much bigotry as they'd like, and they have folks ready to defend them, while admitting that they don't care about the charges, simply because the word "bigot" was used.

Hey, maybe our juries should think this way!

Damn it, I am so tired of people being charged with "Armed Robbery". I know the guy did it, but "Armed Robbery" is so unoriginal. How about "Weaponized Borrowing Without Meaning to Return the Item"? or "Theft with a potential to escalate to murder but it didn't even though the thief had a weapon"? Alright, I know what I'll do.

Not Guilty!

 

[Damuri Ajashi]

It sure is interesting what sort of people these threads almost always bring out.
Yes "The Jews" are all sorts of bad things, preach it!

Your arguments made more sense when you used to try to compare Israel's action with arab actions. Why not compare what is happening to this guy to what would happen to a Jew that conned a muslim girl into having sex by claiming he was muslim. Cuz that would make this guy to jail in this case A-OK

 

[DSeid]

Again, I want to point out, it is to me fairly indisputable that there is some systemic discrimination against minority citizens in Israel. The examples are pretty easy to document and indeed many human rights organizations claim, likely with good cause, that Arab citizens receive stiffer sentences for the same crimes than do Jewish citizens. I am sure that the statistical evidence for sentencing in general would show the same sort of pattern as the Black/White sentencing in drug cases that was noted above. But that does not mean that this case is an example of that and presuming it is, presenting it as his being "jailed for being Palestinian", is very unfair. It isn't like real cases of discrimination in Israel do not exist. Use those ones.

 

[Laudenum]

Well, that seems patently unfair, but I'm glad the matter received national criticism, as the article states.

Hopefully it will be overturned on appeal.

 

[Jackmannii]

Finn, you have some serious issues, and I'm not going to join you in your crazy.

Yeah, he's too busy with his [i]own[/i] crazy.

I never thought (pot) caused any impairment at all except perhaps for inexperienced users. I still don't think it cuases any impairment significant enough to worry about. Pass the bong to my surgeon. I don't care.

Arguing with Dio never does any good. While frequently wrong, he's never in doubt, and will stubbornly hold to the most inane positions rather than concede error in even the minutest degree.

Why not compare what is happening to this guy to what would happen to a Jew that conned a muslim girl into having sex by claiming he was muslim.

I wondered briefly what would be the prison sentence for a Jewish guy who tried conning a Muslim woman in this fashion in a Muslim nation in the Middle East. The difficult with imaging such a scenario is 1) the virtual absence of Jews in any of these countries due to their having been driven from their homes after 1948, and 2) the likelihood that the "sentence" would be death by stoning for both man and woman.

 

[Babale]

Don't try using logic on Ivan. He's one of our posters who is an actual anti-Semite (the usual suspects can now go bonkers on schedule while ignoring that Ivan actually does hate Jews).

HEY! If he was anti-semetic he'd hate anyone who speaks a Semetic languge, not just Jews! So there!

 

[Malthus]

The problem is that Israel has an (IMO stupid) law that lying about one's identity to get sex vitiates consent.

 

[Quint]

Indeed I see no reason to think that this is anything other than a neutral application of a flawed law. My head scratching goes to the point that the man settled with this as a plea bargain. He admitted to it, and agreed to the 18 months sentence.

Now I readily admit that there have been instances that count as systemic discrimination against Palestinians in Israel. Thing is it has usually been the Israeli court system bringing the government to task for those instances. The Israeli court system is pretty damn good and even handed. If this man admitted to "rape by fraud" then he did at least that. I wonder more if how this went down was that the woman was given a really rather typical rape victim treatment - "your word against his word, no proof, say it was consensual and we avoid having to have you and your sexual history raked over the coals in court and he still goes to jail on this lesser charge." But I don't know that any more than you know any of what really happened.

Wow, I had never considered that angle. I'll add that to my list of plausible reasons for why events unfolded as they did. Thank you.

 

[Guinastasia]

Well, we COULD stick them in a room together. Then the rest of us could just discuss this like adults?