Pop Song Themes for Western cartoons . . . why not?

T

The Gracehoper

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Everyone who has watched anime since the late 90's has seen how connected the Japanese animation industry is to the Japanese pop music industry. In fact, when the opening theme song or ending themes change it is an event. Even here in America, on these boards, when an opening for Bleach, Code Geass, or Naruto changes there's a "all right it's FLOW" or "oh crap it's Jinn" type of statement, usually sparking off an discussion about the song, which is in a different language and isn't frequently translated. Is there a market here waiting to be tapped?

Now, why hasn't the Western animation industry and the Western pop music industry teamed up similarly? I think it could work well for both the cartoon and the pop artist to be featured in a cartoon like Avatar or JLU. I think the things that are preventing such things (even considering occurances Ghostface Killah wrote the theme to Skunk Fu!, which wasn't released here) from becoming commonplace isn't just because of the stigma for "animation is for kids only". I think there is a further stigma of being featured in a cartoon is like being featured in a car commercial (especially if the song's new): you're "selling out". Problem is, any band or singer that gets on a major label has technically "sold out", they HAD to so they could have a comfortable life making music. But then why doesn't the stigma apparently exist in Japan? Is there a way for the stigma, if there is one, to be shed?

What are your views on this and do you think that such a marriage would work in the Western world like it has worked on the other side of the Pacific?
 
The stigma doesn't exist in japan because animation in japan is simply seen as another medium and not one only for kids. Otaku may have a stigma attached to them but everybody watches miyazaki and everyone reads manga. It's just like you said a serious artist doesn't want to be featured in something for kids here in the states and the networks don't want any artist that aren't squeaky clean all the time. That's why they make there own tween pop stars complete with sucky music. Also in japan sponsors for anime in the music industry will promote their own artists in anime. Like all the groups that sung the Eureka Seven themes are on Sony Music Japan's label.


And I liked Raion:yawn:
 
The main reason why anime has pop themes is mainly to promote the company's music label, nothing more. Pop songs on cartoons would just unleash a plethora of legal issues.
 
Common misconception. Comics are much more accepted in Japan than animation is, and saying they're similarly accepted in the Japanese mainstream is incorrect. And Miyazaki being 'accepted' is just like how Disney and Pixar are 'accepted', there's no real difference at all between the two.

See: why Daria doesn't have a DVD release.

And yes, in Japan, cartoon openings are 99% of the time nothing more than bulletin board space for new/old bands to promote their new single. The song usually has nothing to do with the show, and is basically a minute and thirty second commercial. Most of the time this is due to recuperate some of the budgeting costs of creating a show. Japanese television isn't as "rich" as television in the West, so they need to make as much money as they can to be compensated for their work.

That being said, just because some pop artist makes a cartoon theme song doesn't make it any better or worse than if it was someone else. Plenty of my favorite theme songs were done by "nobodies", and I can think of quite a few theme songs done by "professionals" I hate. The fact you can have a song that has no baring on a show as the opening just rubs me the wrong way, it's not 'creative', it's just there to make money. I prefer it when an opening compliments and is made specifically for a show; it shows more creativity and effort rather than just selling the space to whoever will pay them the highest money.
 
What if the band performing the show is on the company's music label? For example, a show produced by Warner Bros. Animation having Warner Music Group artists on it.
 
Hmm Your right aren't you?:anime:. I have a habit of grouping anime and manga together. I know someone who was surprised when I told them that anime was not "cool" in japan either and that haruhi toys weren't selling out all over the country. Only in Akiba.



Well that goes back to the issue of not really gaining anything. Animation is for kids here and unlike otaku who would rather not eat for a week then not have every soundtrack associated with their favorite anime, children would hear the song and that would be it. Most band popular enough to have even a bit of impact would be by a mainstream group/singer who probably doesn't have the 4-9 year old in their demograpics. In the end it wouldn't really matter. It's different in japan because it's a different type of viewer.
 
Those were actually theme songs, though. To be what the topic creator is talking about, it'd have to be a song that has nothing to do with the show. Like, say, Britney Spear's debut song "...Baby One More Time" being the theme song for Samurai Jack. It's not who sings it, but what the song actually is. The only example I can think of is when Knights of the Zodiac dub was airing and they used Bowling for Soup's cover of "I Ran" for the theme song.
 
More like the early '70's. There have been Japanese singers, like Isao Sasaki, Mio, and Mari Iijima, who built an entire chapter of their careers on their anime theme songs. What needs to happen is for some big entertainment combine like Disney or Warners to cultivate a singer or two specifically for cross-promoting their cartoons with music. Disney's already done it for their live-action series, with Miley Cyrus and Hilary Duff. They just need to take that one further steps. What's Christy Carlson Romano doing these days, I wonder? She's already got a leg up on this project.
 
Another reason why we don't do it, is time constrait. Anime openings and closings are 1 minute and 30 seconds long. There is just enough time, plus there are less closings in the West. Here in the U.S., the closing credits are advertisements for others shows and products. So what is the point of making an anime style closing.

Though I would love to see one and half minute anime style openings and closings for a show like Avatar, mainly for the artist aspects, not the music really.
 
And that's a bad thing? With many anime shows it feels like the opening is more important then the show itself. That more time is up in it while the rest of the show is sub par.
 
I don't think length means anything, a one minute song can be just as good or bad as a minute and a half minute song. Closing are a lot more sparse like you said, but does anyone really sit through the credits? :sweat:

Openings can definately add some artistic aspects to the show, but you can't really achieve that when the song and intent has nothing to do with the show; if anything, it robs the show of artistic intent because it shows they view it as little more than a commercial. I'd like to see more shows follow W.I.T.C.H. TAS's route; they had two separate openings for each half of the series. Not only did they completely change the animation (and it was original animation too, they didn't just mix up clips from a new season or something), they also got a new song. That extra effort in things other shows completely ignore is very nice to see and added a nice aspect to the series. Just because the song was made for the show and not the latest track off Slipknot's album doesn't make it bad, though.
 
This I believe is the real point. Cartoons = 6-11. Pop music = teens.
It's quite clear Anime is aimed at teens,,, who buy music all the time, because the characters are teens. Can you picture Brittney Spears opening for Skunk Fuu?
umm. What your thinking you heard is most likely the US music opening, then they started using the European opening. I've never found two separate season op's.
 
You know, sometimes a pop singer contracted to do a song for a property goes out of his way to make the song specifically about the property in question. See: T.M. Revolution's "coordinate" album, essentially a concept album about the Cosmic Era, or all of Gackt's songs for the Zeta movies.

It's true that there's a lot of "here, have a random single!" for some anime, but a lot of anime directors oppose this relatively recent practice and will try to instead work with artists from a label who have actual interest in writing about the property. You also still get quite a few themes specific to what's going on in the show, as in the Tytania music.
 
What I'd be more interested in is seeing the western producers try to make money off the music like they do in Japan. Like it or not I find it makes for a richer more entertaining soundtrack where characters get character songs and theme songs and the VAs often sing in character and cool stuff like that and they release tons of CDs.

Anime soundtracks are an industry of their own it seems :p

So why don't we get that in the west? We get sloppy 30 second opening with the title repeating in a loop with a few 'hip' beat and cheesy lyrics and then we get 'generic background music #23' and 'public domain background #5'.

I don't know a lot about music, but it does feel a lot like music is an afterthought in western animation production. Plus what kind of company says no to MORE merchandising?
 
It has four technically (not counting the same song translated into different languages). It has an original production opening for each the first season and the second season. When it aired on ABC Family/Toon Disney, Disney got scared it would confuse kids by having two different openings, so they created a third that would play for the broadcast version for both seasons (We Are W.I.T.C.H.) in the States. The fourth is when it aired in Italy and they created an entirely new song for the show (which is pretty catchy), but it uses old footage from the show. Full versions of the songs, except for the Italian song (you'd have to find that elsewhere) were released on the soundtrack CD. For this instance, though, I'm only looking at the two original themes that were produced for the show.

There's also ones where the song is done in-house. A lot of Pokemon's Japanese openings are sung by the woman who does Ash's voice. Same with Mega Man Star Force's being done by the girl who plays Sonia's Japanese voice. In the west, Skye Sweetnam did the theme songs for Wayside and The Buzz on Maggie.
 
To be simple, it is expensive to get a 40-piece orchestra and at least one vocalist or a small choir (depending on the route taken), plus an assortment of rock/ethnic musicians (this obviously changes if you're doing a comedy instead of an adventure show). It is much cheaper (and easier) to just pile on the synth "instruments" or concentrate on rock instruments, which is what a lot of productions do, even more dramatic ones. By releasing the synth-based music, you're revealing how cheap you really are and how low you rank music in your production. The producers of Oban Star-Racers actually talked about how expensive it was to hire the musicians for Taku Iwasaki, the composer, the price tag shocked them.

Avatar was an exception because they actually hired the small orchestra, the vocalists, and the ethnic instruments, but despite the demand for an OST or two they haven't gotten Nick to release a CD. Which is extremely unfortunate.

And I'm not suggesting putting Britney Spears in front of Samurai Jack. That wouldn't work at all. Lynxara has a good point when he says that a lot of pop artists actually try to write something for the source material, the way Western artists often tailor a song to suit a movie (like Dashboard Confessional tailored 'Vindicated" for Spider-Man 2). That was what I was suggesting when I was asking "why not"?
 
I know what you mean, one of the reasons I think the Japanese version of Digimon is superior to the english dub version, even though the dub version retained most of the great writing and storylines that made Digimon a great series. (though not the only reason, the lame add on jokes is another reason the original is so much better than the dub) Case in point, compair a Digimon Evolution / battle scenes, they are so much more epic in the Japanese vesion.
 
Fair enough, though my point was we would end up with the Britney Spears/Samurai Jack combo more often than anything else if the west's animation industry was like Japan's. The percentage of songs that are actually about the show are in the minority. You used Naruto as an example, though its songs, like Pinocchio and Shooting Star, have nothing to do with the show at all.
 
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