List of Channels in 720p or 1080i

  • Thread starter Thread starter 57
  • Start date Start date
5

57

Guest
BTV have quite a few (70+) HD stations, so a 10-20% difference may seem insignificant to you, however, it is huge for them in terms of bandwidth requirements. They are currently still short of bandwidth, hence the need for 720P and bitrates as low as 10 mbps (sometimes marginally lower)

It's very interesting that we have two viewpoints that are so diametrically opposed - some people think the quality is improving while others think it's getting worse..

See: http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=95269
 
Hi , to all:

Long time lurker and after getting a 9242 decided to post something. Great forum with lots of info , by the way.

Is there any way to find out which are the few HD channels that BEV broadcasts in 1080i?. Is there any way to get extra technical info directly from the 9242 receiver related to the digital stream coming from BEV? (like is possible with the Rogers STB's to allow techs to troubleshoot)

After 3 years enjoying free OTA HDTV , only US (buffalo) and CA Networks (Toronto) I decided very recently to get a 9242 to also watch TSN HD (mostly F1 HD when it becomes available) and Discovery HD among others few specialty HD channels.

What a dissapointment!!!!!!!!!!!!. Still now I find my self tunning through the 9242 to the local OTA channels due to the poor picture quality of the BEV service, especially CBS HD and CityTV HD. CBC HD looks ok to me and I do not see any difference with PBS HD either.

Due to the lack of a passthrough option on the 9242 I have spent a few hours trying both options , 720p and 1080i. My 1080p Samsung 4071 shows a lot of macroblocking , mosquito noise, a several compresion artifacts with a lot of programming, including SD PPV movies like American Gangsters (ch 362) . Yesterdays Free VU concert on ch 830 of the Barenaked ladies was an exception, Good PQ, but a bit of macroblocking though.

Coincidently CBS HD and CityTV are on a 3 HD channels per TP. CBS HD on BEV is the Boston affiliate and therefore a true comparison with the Buffalo OTA signal is not possible , but both broadcasts locally in 1080i anyways and more importantly without multicasting, therefore the whole 6 Mhz or if you prefer the full 19.4 Mb/s is available if needed depending on the programming as we all know.

But CityTV is my gripe. That is a local station here in Mississauga, without multicasting as well, and therefore as per CRTC rules should be broadcasted with the same picture quality as the OTA signal. I am in the midst of a formal complain to the CRTC and directly to BEV for this reason but being a Telecommunications Engineer (at least back in Cuba I can claim that) I would like to gather as much technical info as possible and test as much as I can before sending the proper documentation. Cancelling the BEV service unfortunaelly is not an option but making sure it improves seems to me more than a hobby , lol lol).

The fact that the representatives at Bell World (SQ 1) repeatedly insisted that BEV does not compress or reformat or do anyting to any HD channels is out of the scope of this thread (they could not even show me the Discovery and TSN HD channels at the store , due to no signal on those TP's). I would like to invite every one , if I may, to add as much technical info or at least ways to get it if possible.

Sorry for the long post but I find my self difficult to digest the fact that I will be paying 62 CAD per months for the next 2 years for such low piqture quality HD channels.

Thanks for reading and have a nice day
 
Slider, I hear you my friend..... but it is a lost cause with BEV......, I have been screaming from the roof tops to have BEV send us the native broadcast signal, which for the most part is a 1080i signal. (FOX, ABC send a 720P) but BEV is still doing this same signal manipulation. WHY? I have no idea!!

Paul
 
Doesn't the fact that Bell continues to broadcast the Canadian flagship (i.e. the closest thing to state-run TV) in 1080i in both French and English - doesnt this tell us that even BEV knows there is a difference and that they are afraid to mess with our national heritage (+PPV UFC)

For those of us with larger TV's/projectors and access to OTA HD to compare, I'm afraid there is a clear difference - BEll acknowledges that by not downgrading our premier Canadian broadcasting!!!
 
2 more emails today, both bla bla bla. 1 from Global and the other from Citytv. But Citytv told me they forwarded it to a more appropiate department. In the past CHUM FM has responded my technical questions , so lets wait a bit. Global answer was probably an automated one with a lot of programming info even suggesting me if my question was not answered maybe i should give them more info. Obviously they did not even read my email. But cheez 2 out of 6 not bad so far, in baseball terms they are hitting for a 333 AVE which in any league is a good average. lol lol lol.
 
I think 57 gave you a clue as to why.....

It is bandwidth...

Bell TV do not have a lot left to play with, plus the addition of 2 x HD Firelogs and TLCHD in the very recent past must mean robbing the other channels of a little bit more just to provide these 3 new offerings.

When the logs burn out, they can add the ashes back into the pot for the normal HD.

Paulo, get yourself an OTA antenna, you will enjoy the locals in 1080i. I spent $15 on E-bay and was amazed at how easy it was to get even 7 channels, with no effort at all.
 
There was a thread on this a few months ago... Maybe it needs updating.

CBC is currently 1080i. Almost everything else is 720p. Last I heard, CBS Seattle and maybe 1 or 2 other US nets were 1080i but that may have changed as well. Even HDNet and TMN HD have been changed to 720p from their original 1080i.
 
I'm convinced that the only reason that CBC-HD and SRC-HD are still in 1080i is that the CBC does not let BEv get away with the transcoding. It's nice to see that one broadcaster actually cares about their signal getting through to the customer unscathed.

The CRTC says they care (they put such provisions in the regulations), but if you try to complain about the transcoding, they pass the complaint off to BEv and there's no follow up.
 
or do what the satellite and cable competition allows you to do - just say NO to HDLite and dump Bell.
 
I have a hard time to believe CBC has any control over how their signals are molested (or not) on its way to the TVs...
 
If Rogers had a HDPVR that was made after 1999, I might consider it.... As it stands, I prefer my HD lite, and supercharged HDPVR, with, hold it, here it comes, a 16x9 guide....
Whooaaa, what an innovation!
I wish they would dump the PPV channels, and use that bandwidth to use on the hd channels, as we RARELY order PPV's....
I'm guessing that the revenue they generate is why this will never happen, and the recent addtion (or at least I just noticed it) of a 5th HDPPV channel doesn't help
 
Can we expect service in 1080i or even 1080p in the future?

I am currently feeding a 32-inch 720p screen, and want to feed a second in the HT room off the same 9242 PVR. My 9242 PVR is set to output 720p now. How does a 1080p screen look when fed by BEV's 720p signal?

With 50-inch Panasonic sets at $1250 and $1900 for 720p and 1090p respectively, I am really wondering if the 1080p is worth the extra cash considering my 10-foot seating distance.
 
Almost all of the items you have mentioned have been discussed in various threads on this forum - compression, CRTC rules, etc.

The latest BEV format link is in the following post (basically it seems to be in constant flux):

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=76129

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=84230 CRTC & Compression

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=72525 BEV Compression
 
If I'm not mistaken, CBC HD is the only one left that is 1080/60i on the consumer's end (regardless of what BEV is getting it in).
There were 2 more a few months ago, not anymore. There is no easy way to find out the resolution of what you're getting.

BEV recently switched to VBR (to fit 3 HD channels per transponder, under 10Mbps each) on all 720p channels (i.e. everything but CBC HD).
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showpost.php?p=699099&postcount=473
BEV never comments on what is done with the stream they are getting but insists quality is not compromised.
Sports is the most to suffer from the bitrate "diet". Macroblocking is the first sign of it. It's unlikely it'll get better anytime soon.
 
granduncle, my understanding from reading other threads in this forum is that this is exactly what happened. CBC wasn't happy with the way bell was recompressing their feed, and either through the CRTC or directly through bell they got the recourse that they wanted. CBC Toronto (802) has more bandwidth than just about any other HD channel on expressvu, and is an unmolested signal direct from CBC.

BTW, all broadcasters theoretically have this control - CRTC regulations state that BDUs (bell, rogers, etc) may not "degrade" the over-the-air signal on the way to consumers. Definition of degrade is debated. I don't know if these regulations apply to non-broadcast signals (i.e. pay channels).
 
thanks for the replies to everyone but I was hoping to unify our efforts on a single thread instead of having several divided threads discussing different but at the same time related topics. I guess the statement "Divide and you will win" it is still very much alive and kicking.

I have read all of them (and also the BEV technical forum on their site), like I said "long time lurker", but felt the need to gather info and focus our efforts to improve the HDTV broadcasting service of the major providers in only one thread somehow. I guess BEV was right at least when they said that marketplace should regulate the standards needed for this services. I should add especially a market place full of people not expert in this matter willing to pay big bucks for NON-HDTV. If Knowleadge people like members of this forum do nothing about it I guess the future will be still NON-HDTV with 6 HD channels per TP using MPEG4 and maybe also 8PSK modulation with all the channels at 720p and still the same mosquitos making the same noise than years ago , if you catch my drift.

For the time being I will continue renting blu-ray movies or DVD's instead of using the macrobloked VU PPV and watching my favorite network shows via OTA UHF antenna. Too bad that for TSN and Discovery (NON-HD) I still have to use BEV. Although TSN HD looks really good. I guess not everything is bad news , the 9242 is a wonder!!!!. I will also contact CityTV and our local stations to get what they have to say about this. My recommendation to friends and family get a UHF antenna and enjoy 19.4 Mb/s still-compressed HDTV but free and way better than anything else. To my enemies call your local satellite or cable provider and suffer!!!.

good bye.
 
I guess that makes sense. Every 5-10 channels and they can squeeze in another entire channel in by getting rid of 1080i. Still, the 1080i channels used to look absolutely fantastic and now they only look "decent" being upconverted to from 720p to 1080i with the way our system is currently configured. We just don't get the same amount of detail with a 720p source and now it is only Bluray or HD-DVD that provides an ultra-detailed image in our home theater room (noting that Bluray/HD-DVD was always better than ExpressVu's 1080i, but slow moving/stationary scenes were quite close).

Looking at the actual file sizes for my recent recordings, a 1 hour 720p recording can be less than 3GB in size to as big as 6.5GB in size (with the majority close to 4GB per hour). Dividing 3,000,000KB/60minutes/60s I end up with 833KB/s and assuming an 8-bit byte, this is 6.7mbps. So, Bell TV is currently using a variable bit rate, averaging between 6.5mbps and 14.4mbps with their current HD channels. With most shows averaging around 8.6mbps, this is well under the "standard" 19.4mbps HD bitrate and also well under the 10mbps that everyone "thinks" they are using).

They must be using a very impressive mpeg-2 transcoder since the image looks a ton better than any regular mpeg-2 codec could produce using these low bitrates. My guess is they are now using one of those multi-channel optimizing systems that truly optimize the bandwidth for each satellite transponder (in real time they actively tweak the bitrate and transcode all of the channels that share a common transponder).

If I go back a couple of years, I seem to recall some of the 1080i recordings (from popular channels and a special event or block buster movie) as having a bitrates at 19.4mbps. I don't have any 1080i recordings anymore (we don't archive anything and delete shows once we watch them) so I can't say for certain what they had recently been using.

Maybe I should try reconfiguring everything to run at 720p instead of 1080i (my display "officially" only natively supports 1080i, but I know I can drive it with a 720p signal and it will display it as is; 480i, 480p, 960i, etc. are (horribly) converted to 1080i though).



I should say that it is only the previously 1080i channels that look worse than they used to. I have actually noticed an improvement in image quality on 720p channels over the past month or so.

One of the biggest improvements I have noticed is not specifically with the image detail, but that the 720p data streams are arriving without as many errors - even with moderate amounts of recent rain and snow falling. Did Bell change something in the past 4-6 months that has improved the signal strength or something?
 
Back
Top