Just How Bad is the CW4Kids?

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#10 FC Wauwatosa

New member
The CW network in my humble opinion, has been a horribly mismanaged network from the very moment that the decision was made for UPN and WB to merge. But that's another story for another time. I became curious about the supposedly negative repercussions of the CW deciding to sell their Saturday morning block (what was previously known as Kids WB) to 4KidsEntertainment after stumbling upon Deja.com today:
 
If WB doesn't give a crap about cartoons anymore, then I think it's great that the block is now run by a company who does. And I personally think the fall lineup for CW4Kids looks to be the best they've had since Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh first aired on the block.
 
UPN and the WB were pretty mismanaged too if I recall. There's a reason they merged - because they were both tanking. They figured they could compete with the big four by working together, but together they've gotten about the same overall ratings that they got individually.


This isn't a fair assessment at all. Of course the ratings have dipped over the summer. That happens on every single channel, no matter what the time. Overall it's held steady against the other blocks, not doing any worse than Kids' WB anyway.

Also, by midseason pretty much the entire block will be new episodes, and it really isn't that cluttered with reruns to begin with. Huntik, RollBots, GOGORiKi (if not before then) and Kamen Rider will all be premering, likely the second season of Spectacular Spider-Man will begin, and the new seasons of Dinosaur King, TMNT, and 5D's will all be continuing. That's eight of the ten slots being new material. Sure, in September there will only be three slots of new episodes, but that's only for a little while.

Personally I'm way more interested in the CW4Kids' prospects than I was in Kids' WB since I started being able to watch it a year or two ago, so I don't see what the huge criticism is. 4Kids cares more about success on the block than CBS or Warner Bros. ever did.

I understand the complaints about the network as the whole, because it does look like it's managed by an untrained monkey (especially with the ludicrous ditching of WWE Smackdown), but the Saturday morning block is one of the very few bright spots left on the network.
 
I completely agree. I couldn't have said it better myself.

I actually thought that the fall block for the CW4Kids looks a lot better than most of Kids' WB's lineups for the past couple of years. Of course, I thought that their lineups have been kind of poor because of their choosing to get rid of Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh!, the later being understandable considering the series did end its run. Besides that, WB hasn't really done much with their cartoons because they don't really care about them anymore. They basically said that they were just going to focus on direct-to-DVD kind of stuff in terms of animation and do nothing with their Saturday morning block. Thus explains why the vast majority of Kids' WB shows aren't returning with new episodes. Spider-Man is different, I would imagine since that's connected more to Marvel than to WB. That and it was already guareenteed to have a second season.

As for their fall lineup, most of the shows are new so I don't know where someone got that idea that the block is full of repeats. 4Kids is treating their 4KidsTV block as the repeat slot block, but that's to be expected since they're probably just using it due to the contract. I always find it annoying that people blame 4Kids about this whole deal with WB when it was WB who put their block up for sale. 4Kids just bought it. I don't see what's so horribly wrong with that. Of course, knowing the Internet like I think I do, there are often people who blame 4Kids because they're 4Kids. Just wanting to throw in my two cents here.
 
While it's pretty much a rerun block, I do enjoy all of the shows on there. Plus, aside from two episodes of Tom & Jerry Tales and Yu-Gi-Oh GX, it's pretty good in diversity.
 
Try 4 of the 10 for this fall- Dinosaur King, TMNT: Back to the Sewers, Yu-Gi-Oh! 5D's, and Viva Pinata (they have 7 or 8 episodes that haven't aired, so you can expect it to be those episodes). By mid-season it becomes 8 of the 10 with GoGORiki, Rollbots, Kamen Rider: Dragon Knight, Huntik: Seekers and Signs, Dinosaur King, TMNT: Back to the Sewers, Yu-Gi-Oh! 5D's, and Spectacular Spider-Man. Only one of the E/I shows and Chaotic will be in rerun mode for CW4Kids at mid-season, unless they actually decide to air Magical DoReMi in that second E/I slot with episodes 27+, in which case it would be only 1 rerun spot. You also can't forget that 4Kids TV will be debuting new episodes of Di-Gata Defenders (at least for the US), Biker Mice From Mars, and Chaotic: M'arrillion Invasion. Those premieres would be on CW4Kids if it were next season, so selling the slot to 4Kids actually is more beneficial for the network because 1) it allows them to gain money from a third party- 4Kids, 2) it maintains much of their current kids viewership while actually stealing some from FOX, and 3) it allows them to use some of the money they had been using on animation for areas the rest of the network needs.
 
Personally I'll just wait for the block to be out of rerun mode to get a fair and better judgement on it. After all I think one of 4kids strong points is running a weekend morning block, and making it enjoyable with their contest, and some of their bumps, my least favorite is still that one yellow head slug thing.
 
In a nutshell this is what's wrong with the CW in my estimation:
*Letting Dawn Ostroff run the network into the ground. Ms. Ostroff used to work at Lifetime before coming over to UPN. This shows, in how she now desires the CW to be the network for the young female demographic. But what Dawn Ostroff doesn't seem to fully realize that when you're running what's supposed to be a major broadcast TV network (to compete with CBS, ABC, NBC and FOX), you have to cater as to as many demographics as possible (rather than one particular niche market that you would expect from cable).

*Turning their backs on the urban demographic, when UPN and WB had in the past, courted them when the other networks wouldn't. They cancelled "Girlfriends", "All of Us", "One on One", and moved "Everybody Hates Chris" all over the schedule with virtually little advertising.

*Poorly advertising shows that have or had a loyal following like "Supernatural" and "Veronica Mars".

*Putting all of their eggs in the "Gossip Girl"/"America's Next Top Model" basket. Just look at the CW's upcoming fall schedule. There's virtually little variety or diversity. All of the most hyped shows (e.g. "90210", "Privileged", etc.) fall into the "rich, pretty white kids" category.

*Dumping "SmackDown!" (for the sake of attracting more young female viewers) even though it was the highest rated show on the network, and got respectable ratings in what's otherwise considered the "Friday Night Death Slot".

*Cancelling "Everwood" in favor of an 11th season of "7th Heaven" just so that particular show can get cancelled again. Dawn Ostroff's logic for bringing "7th Heaven" back for one more year was because it simply got high ratings for its series finale on the WB.:confused:

*Pulling "Reba" off of the air even though it was the highest rated sitcom on the WB at the time that it shut down. Just like with "SmackDown!", Dawn Ostroff cited that the show didn't fit in with the CW's newly desired target demographic.
 
Since I'm the joker who actually wrote that post at TV Week, I guess I have to defend my comments with something called . . . um, defense.

Okay. It's good you feel that way.

But consider this.

4Kids Entertainment is programming a pair of Saturday morning programming blocks, one for The CW and the other for Fox. They have to essentially program against each other. And they're placing reruns on both networks to satisfy their programming demands for the bulk of the season.

I have to admire 4Kids for exposing the laziness of The CW.

Well, that's your tastes. If you want cheaply-dubbed marketable children's entertainment, then by all means you're going to be supportive of

Hmm. Tell that to ABC Kids. Their ratings have been on the uptick for a good five months now, even beating Kids' WB's ratings.

Yes, it is. Ever since the whole turnover to CW4Kids, ratings have dipped 25% compared to the same period on Kids' WB last year. The block rarely got anything below 1.0 when it was KWB, but as the CW4Kids, more than three shows get 0.8, especially in prime slots where KWB was strong.

Also, why 4Kids?

It's not like there aren't other studios looking for places to show off their wares, including Nelvana, Cookie Jar (which actually provided a bulk of shows to Kids' WB last season), Marathon, Taffy, even Sony Pictures Television Entertainment. Why would The CW go with a competitor that is STILL programming their competitor in the same season? That's moronic.

But a lot of the new season is done right now. They could air at least four or five episodes when the season begins and What's the hold-up? Spider-Man is the biggest property CW4Kids has, and what did they do? They moved it from a 10 AM prime slot to a 9 AM/8 AM Central slot, quiet and still considerably early. Why would we want to wait almost a year for new episodes of Spider-Man? And with double repeats of Chaotic closing out the block and nary a Kids' WB series ON the block (not even a new series from WBA), one would wonder if CW4Kids IS nothing more than a repeat block.

And again, why would the newer shows premiere later in the season rather than earlier? I'd think one would want to see more than two new series, not just something familiar.

And if you like the quality of programming coming from 4Kids, you would feel that way. I've come to expect something other than card-game-based shows and toyetic properties 4Kids exemplifies, and I felt last season's lineup was one of the strongest they had in years. Pity The CW didn't continue to build up on that.

Well . . . definitely more than CBS did. CBS has all the capabilities to produce series for the block, but they never did. Warner Bros. had to do all of the work for the two seasons Kids' WB remained on The CW.
The fact that CBS would rather concentrate on the prime-time lineup than co-producing shows for the Saturday morning lineup as well was just one of many signs that The CW has many, many problems within.

4Kids is just happily capitalizing on that inner strife while making the network they previously had a deal with that much more angry.
 
Karmic justice may be on its way. Like most people I can't see the CW lasting long enough to get a 2009-10 season. If 4Kids has angered Fox enough for them to be dumped, and then CW ceases to exist, 4Kids no longer has a home.
 
If CW actually ended soon and the Fox arrangement is going up in smoke, then 4Kids would either try to move to My Network TV, and since there getting WWE Smackdown! to boost their ratings, a Saturday morning block would help them try and gain some more footing as a network (and since 4Kids already airs My Network TV here is a little bonus for me, hehe.) or stream their shows online and sell stuff like Spider-Man and TMNT to Cartoon Network, Nick, or Disney.
 
There is so much wrong with that Jeff, so I'll break your argument down bit by bit.



I'm going to do a week-by-week comparison of 2007 to 2008.

CW4Kids wins, ABC Kids 2007 wins.


Kids' WB wins, ABC Kids 2007 wins.

 Kids' WB wins, ABC Kids 2007 wins.

CW4Kids wins, ABC has no data.


CW4Kids wins, ABC Kids 2007 wins.

Kids' WB wins, ABC 2007 wins.

Final score: Kids' WB ties with CW4Kids 3-3, and ABC 2007 wins 5-0. So clearly, CW4Kids has been doing just as well as Kids' WB did, and ABC Kids is actually worse off than they were last year.

Seriously Jeff, a 25% dip? Stop making up random numbers.



Sorry, but you're undoubtedly misinformed. Greg Weisman has clearly stated in multiple interviews and posts that season two of The Spectacular Spider-Man won't be ready until January at the earliest. They're still animating the episodes.



I thought you of all people would know that putting a show on earlier in the morning doesn't mean less people will watch it. Kids' WB put Tom & Jerry Tales on that early and it was the highest rated show on the block for months.

And for the record, there is no separate Central time on the CW4Kids. CW4Kids runs from 7:00 AM - 12:00 PM here as well.



Oh? How about Will & Dewitt, Magi-Nation, Skunk Fu! and The Spectacular Spider-Man? That's four Kids' WB shows out of nine total shows, nearly half the block.



Obviously because the mid-season additions are still in production, just like Spider-Man. Kamen Rider Dragon Knight, Huntik and Rollbots haven't aired anywhere else in the world so far, and the CW4Kids will be the first to air those series anywhere.



You've got that backwards. 4Kids is the one dumping FOX, because they're losing money (while they'll gain money with the CW). I'm sure FOX would love if 4Kids stayed with them, since they're actually making a large profit off of them.
 
And there's so much wrong with your breakdown of the ratings, it's almost laughable. You wanted to play this game.

Let's play.

First of all, did you even compare the shows to the timeslots? ABC and The CW only competes against each other from 9 AM to Noon in the East. Here's the breakdown of the core numbers:

CW/ABC (6/23/07)
1.2/0.8 (CW)
1.1/1.1 (Even)
1.0/1.6 (ABC)
1.2/2.3 (ABC)
1.5/2.4 (ABC)
1.3/2.2 (ABC)
ABC wins 4-1-1.

CW/ABC (6/21/07)
1.4/0.5 (CW)
1.4/0.8 (CW)
1.4/1.0 (CW)
1.4/1.2 (CW)
0.9/1.3 (ABC)
0.9/1.3 (ABC)

The CW wins 4-2 in the first week of The CW4Kids, buoyed by the new Spectacular Spider-Man and the CW premieres of Chaotic and Fast Forward. GX's premiere, which was a new episode, was actually a disappointment, actually LOSING 2/3 of the audience from the same period last year. That's 66%. That's more than the 25%. And no, I'm not making up numbers.

CW/ABC (6/30/07)
1.2/0.5 (CW)
1.3/0.7 (CW)
1.0/1.1 (ABC)
1.1/1.4 (ABC)
1.4/1.3 (CW)
1.6/1.1 (CW)

CW 4-2. Look. No shows on CW under 1.0.

CW/ABC (6/28/08)
0.8/0.6 (CW)
0.8/0.7 (CW)
1.0/1.1 (CW)
1.0/1.0 (even)
0.7/1.0 (ABC)
0.8/1.1 (ABC)

CW barely squeaks by ABC 3-2-1 thanks to ABC's lackluster 9 AM block. ABC dominates two out of three hours they compete against each other. Look . . . four CW shows under 1.0. Plus, GX and The Batman lose 50% of the audience compared to the same audience a year ago and the 9 AM shows both lose 33% of their audience, i.e a third of the total audience compared to a year ago (here's the math: 2007's number for the 9 AM show is 1.2. That same number in 2008 is 0.8. The difference is 0.4 or 1/3 of the audience of 2007. That's 33% of the audience).

CW/ABC (7/7/07)
1.4/0.4 (CW)
1.2/0.8 (CW)
1.2/1.3 (ABC)
1.2/2.0 (ABC)
1.1/2.1 (ABC)
1.1/1.9 (ABC)

ABC 4-2

CW/ABC (7/5/08)

0.5/0.5 (EVEN)
0.6/0.8 (ABC)
0.8/0.9 (ABC)
0.8/0.9 (ABC)
0.4/1.1 (ABC)
0.4/1.6 (ABC)

ABC wins 5-0-1. ALL CW shows under 1.0. Ratings are even LOWER for them compared to a year ago (a repeat of Spectacular Spider-Man lost 50% of the audience than Johnny Test had in the same period while Chaotic lost well over 9/10 of a point or about 70% of the audience of Shaggy and Scooby from last year). That's So Raven's numbers are so low because the popularity of those reruns are waning, but both still beat what The CW aired in those timeslots (a new Spider-Man and Fast Forward).

CW/ABC (7/26/08)
1.2/0.4
1.2/0.8
1.3/0.9
1.6/1.0
1.1/1.4
1.4/1.2

An anomally as CW nearly sweeps (Hannah Montana beats GX). Plus, in some markets, ABC programming didn't come on until later or even Sunday because of British Open coverage.

CW/ABC (8/4/07)
1.1/0.4 (CW)
1.2/0.7 (CW)
1.3/1.0 (CW)
1.3/1.3 (even)
1.2/1.6 (ABC)
1.1/1.8 (ABC)

CW wins 3-2-1.

CW/ABC (8/2/08)
1.1/0.4 (CW)
1.3/0.7 (CW)
1.5/0.9 (CW)
1.5/0.8 (CW)
1.1/1.0 (CW)
1.1/1.2 (ABC)

CW Wins 5-1. Another rare abnormality with no excuses from me, though this was the final week of a somewhat regular block. Chaotic, Fast Forward, and GX lost a tenth of a point while Spider-Man gained two-tenths of a point. GX still pales in comparison to Xiaolin a year earlier, but only by a tenth of a point. Batman is still even with Johnny Test.

CW/ABC (8/11/07)
1.1/0.8 (CW)
1.1/1.4 (ABC)
1.4/1.5 (ABC)
1.3/1.8 (ABC)
1.3/2.1 (ABC)
1.2/2.6 (ABC)
ABC Wins 5-1

The first week of 4Kids' true face:
CW/ABC (8/9/08)
1.0/0.7 (CW)
1.0/1.0 (even)
0.9/1.2 (ABC)
1.0/1.6 (ABC)
0.8/1.6 (ABC)
0.9/1.4 (ABC)
ABC Wins 4-1-1. Again, three shows below 1.0. Fast Forward lost a third of its audience (33%) compared to a week ago while ratings for the slot is 15% different than a year ago.

Final score: CW does win 4-2, but ratings have dipped an average of 25-33% compared to a year ago on the network. The average ratings for the CW is still about a 1.1, but ABC's average rating is higher with a 1.3.

I think that ABC has a better edge than The CW, and while their ratings aren't big right now, they're fairly consistant with the same ratings a year ago.

Nope. Not misinformed. Some episodes ARE done right now, about three or four to be exact. The entire 13-episode season won't be ready until January, but it will launch in the spring. And then . . . well, let's just say there's already rumblings of a move to another network by this time next year.

And no, it's not Cartoon Network.

Yes. Humorous shows work in earlier timeslots. Action properties don't. Remember the Big Kids Go First campaign Kids' WB had many years ago? Ratings tumbled for their action properties, so they moved them back to their later timeslots by the end of that season.

In YOUR area, CW4Kids airs like that, but that's not apparent for the bulk of the country. Some are time-adjusted. Some air the block on Sundays. Some don't air the block at all.

Skunk Fu will be CN-exclusive by the winter (they're doing a movie exclusively for the channel next year), Spectacular Spider-Man will be history on CW4Kids by next summer, Will and Dewitt will be replaced by mid-season, and Magi-Nation is temporary filling a slot.

And none of them are owned by Warner Bros. Animation. They could have continued Tom and Jerry Tales and Legion of Super Heroes and they could have aired Brave and the Bold on C4K, but they won't, and they didn't.

Japan will disagree with you on Kamen Rider Dragon Knight, and Canada will disagree with you on Rollbots. If the cards play themselves right, Canada will also disagree with you on season two of Spectacular Spider-Man.

Canada's already getting the world premiere of Wolverine and the X-Men in a couple of weeks. You DID know that, right?

Did you perhaps think that 4Kids is losing money because kids aren't really thrilled with a myriad of card-game based series year after year? Kids aren't stupid you know. And for the record, 4Kids has the exact same kind of deal with Fox as they have with The CW. The difference is that instead of one sucker, two suckers are paying 4Kids (Time Warner and CBS).
 
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