Sans Deity
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Also, Josephus lived decades after Jesus, so everything he was told is hearsay and not a reason to believe Jesus rose from the dead.
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Josephus Antiquities of the Jews proven as forgeries made by the church?
- Thread starter Sans Deity
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abc def ghi
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Feldman concluded in 1963 that:
"The most probably view seems to be that our text represents substantially what Josephus wrote, but that some alterations have been made by a Christian interpolator." [th]
Then in 1971:
"In a startling find, Shlomo Pines publishes citations of the TF appearing in Arabic and Syriac works of the 9th-10th century. These quotations substantially resemble our current Testimonium, but do not have two of the most suspicious phrases: "he was the Messiah" and "if indeed he can be called a man". Pines suggests these editions may have used an authentic, uninterpolated version of Josephus' work." [th]
However, there are no earlier texts which can prove whether any part of the Testimonium Flavianum was actually written by Josephus; and there is reason to be unsure of the veracity of Origen himself as a chronicler of history.
http://ptet.dubar.com/ecw/josephus.html
"The most probably view seems to be that our text represents substantially what Josephus wrote, but that some alterations have been made by a Christian interpolator." [th]
Then in 1971:
"In a startling find, Shlomo Pines publishes citations of the TF appearing in Arabic and Syriac works of the 9th-10th century. These quotations substantially resemble our current Testimonium, but do not have two of the most suspicious phrases: "he was the Messiah" and "if indeed he can be called a man". Pines suggests these editions may have used an authentic, uninterpolated version of Josephus' work." [th]
However, there are no earlier texts which can prove whether any part of the Testimonium Flavianum was actually written by Josephus; and there is reason to be unsure of the veracity of Origen himself as a chronicler of history.
http://ptet.dubar.com/ecw/josephus.html
Grillparzer
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Of course parts of it were a forgery, Josephus died a Jew. Why would a Jew be claiming Jesus as the Messiah?
mother superior
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The alterations are not actually important in discrediting Antiquities of the Jews as an eyewitness account of Jesus, or the historical Jesus (or whatever it’s being used for), for the simple reason that Josephus discusses God's creation of the earth, Adam & Eve, Noah & the flood, the Tower of Babel, the 10 Plagues, and the parting of the sea, etc.
This is, clearly, not eyewitness reporting, nor is it relating to historical events void of religion, but mostly historical events according to religion:
"Now I have undertaken the present work, as thinking it will appear to all the Greeks worthy of their study; for it will contain all our antiquities, and the constitution of our government, [**]as interpreted out of the Hebrew Scriptures[**]." "I shall now betake myself to the history before me, after I have first mentioned what Moses says of the creation of the world, which I find [**]described in the sacred books[**] after the manner following."
- Antiquities of the Jews -- Preface
This is, clearly, not eyewitness reporting, nor is it relating to historical events void of religion, but mostly historical events according to religion:
"Now I have undertaken the present work, as thinking it will appear to all the Greeks worthy of their study; for it will contain all our antiquities, and the constitution of our government, [**]as interpreted out of the Hebrew Scriptures[**]." "I shall now betake myself to the history before me, after I have first mentioned what Moses says of the creation of the world, which I find [**]described in the sacred books[**] after the manner following."
- Antiquities of the Jews -- Preface
WellTraveledProg
New member
Proven? No.
But yes, the only reasonable conclusion given the evidence is that there were later insertions. Not least of which because Josephus was and remained a faithful Jew, and would never have called anyone "the messiah" when he didn't think the messiah had yet come.
What most christians fail to realize is that either way, Josephus was never alive when supposed jesus was, and so could not have provided any "testimony" anyway. At best it's a second-hand account, at worst a complete forgery. Either way, nothing worthwhile to add.
Peace.
But yes, the only reasonable conclusion given the evidence is that there were later insertions. Not least of which because Josephus was and remained a faithful Jew, and would never have called anyone "the messiah" when he didn't think the messiah had yet come.
What most christians fail to realize is that either way, Josephus was never alive when supposed jesus was, and so could not have provided any "testimony" anyway. At best it's a second-hand account, at worst a complete forgery. Either way, nothing worthwhile to add.
Peace.
eric k backup again
New member
They are referring specifically to the "Testamonium Flavium", and not the entire work.
Yes, critical consensus is that the passages in question are a later addition.
Yes, critical consensus is that the passages in question are a later addition.
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