Blu Vylett
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What ????
Jolie's Cleopatra casting starts race row
- Thread starter Blu Vylett
- Start date
Sam Thomas
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There were indeed some non white people, probably mainly in port cities. But Charles Dickens main characters were white.
You might as well re-make Brideshead Revisited or Pride and Prejudice with some black actors - it wouldn't sit well and would spoil the reality of the piece.
You might as well re-make Brideshead Revisited or Pride and Prejudice with some black actors - it wouldn't sit well and would spoil the reality of the piece.
I like Angelina Jolie but I agree with the journalist. I think they've chosen Angelina because usually she sells really well, whereas I don't ever recall Thandie Newton being the main actress in a film, I know Halle Berry has and I'm gonna be honest I've never seen any of her films so I can't really comment on whether she'd be good or not. Vanessa Williams..Isn't she in Ugly Betty? Is she a film actress?
outburst95
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Which part of the book does Charles Dickens state that Nancy is white?
"Brideshead Revisited" and "Pride and Prejudice" aren't real. You can't "spoil the reality" of an artefact that is not real. SMH.
"Brideshead Revisited" and "Pride and Prejudice" aren't real. You can't "spoil the reality" of an artefact that is not real. SMH.
[email protected]
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Cleopatra wouldn't have been black though because she was of Greek origin.
pink.tutu95
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The skull belonged to someone they thought was Cleopatra's half sister. They didn't have a whole skeleton, they had only photographs and a description of the skull. They thought the skull exhibited a mix of features which they described as European, Egyptian and African.
There are also experts quoted in the article who cast doubt on assertions that skull measurements are a reliable indicator of ethnicity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsinoe_IV_of_Egypt
There are also experts quoted in the article who cast doubt on assertions that skull measurements are a reliable indicator of ethnicity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsinoe_IV_of_Egypt
Jolie seems totally wrong for Cleopatra to me. It will be even worse if plank of wood Brad plays Mark Anthony!
They should definitely pick a dark skinned actress. We don't want to see Jolie plastered in ronseal (like Alec Gunness in Passage to India). Vanessa Williams is a better looking than Jolie too.
They should definitely pick a dark skinned actress. We don't want to see Jolie plastered in ronseal (like Alec Gunness in Passage to India). Vanessa Williams is a better looking than Jolie too.
tickle monster
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Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia that anyone can edit online. I could edit it if I wanted to. That does not change that recent news stories, the BBC only being one, have referenced her having African blood. Also, if we want to be pedantic, the ancient Greeks were meant to have a much darker skin tone than current Greeks.
In general, why does it pain people so much to think that black people even feature in any key part of history? I do not see the problems in accepting that sometimes historians in the past made errors that people now are correcting because of better research both scientific adn hsitorical. It wasn't the done thing to reference people of differen races in a lot of past history but hopefully times are now cvhaging and people can be more honest.
In general, why does it pain people so much to think that black people even feature in any key part of history? I do not see the problems in accepting that sometimes historians in the past made errors that people now are correcting because of better research both scientific adn hsitorical. It wasn't the done thing to reference people of differen races in a lot of past history but hopefully times are now cvhaging and people can be more honest.
girlygirl1400
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Cleopatra was Greek, not African! Jolie is perfect IMO
big_swinns
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Of course you can!! Nancy has always been depicted as white. She was intended to be white. It is extremely unlikely that she would be a black character.
You can spoil the reality of a book which is filmed with characters substantially different from those written. Jane Austin's characters are white. If non white actors are cast for some characters it would not work from a historical class and social point of view. You could cast one of Austin's characters with a white actor speaking with a working class London accent - that wouldn't work either.
A recent Poirot episode cast a black actress as a character's mistress. This was unreal - since the original character was white - and had she been black, by the mores of the time, she would have been shunned by most and there would have been much whispering behind her back. For me, this casting was therefore absurd. (Although the actress herself was excellent in the part).
Cross ethnic casting can work better in classic stage plays, since they are more styalised less realistic than films or TV dramas, and people will accept a black actor playing Hamlet, for example.
Othello is another case in point. In the play he is a Moor - an Arab man. But he has been depicted on stage and film as a black man.
You can spoil the reality of a book which is filmed with characters substantially different from those written. Jane Austin's characters are white. If non white actors are cast for some characters it would not work from a historical class and social point of view. You could cast one of Austin's characters with a white actor speaking with a working class London accent - that wouldn't work either.
A recent Poirot episode cast a black actress as a character's mistress. This was unreal - since the original character was white - and had she been black, by the mores of the time, she would have been shunned by most and there would have been much whispering behind her back. For me, this casting was therefore absurd. (Although the actress herself was excellent in the part).
Cross ethnic casting can work better in classic stage plays, since they are more styalised less realistic than films or TV dramas, and people will accept a black actor playing Hamlet, for example.
Othello is another case in point. In the play he is a Moor - an Arab man. But he has been depicted on stage and film as a black man.
justinclayjr
New member
I think it's ridiculous this journalist is seriously suggesting casting someone based solely on their skin colour, when it is to play a historical character that noone can really be sure of how she actually looked.
Acting ability and how big a draw the actress is, along with budget, isn't discriminating against anyone, whereas to me, the journalist is the one discriminating against others.
Acting ability and how big a draw the actress is, along with budget, isn't discriminating against anyone, whereas to me, the journalist is the one discriminating against others.
BLOWJOb joeboy
New member
As the poster above said unfortunately Cleopatra was of Greek heritage with Red hair reading the reports from that era.
I have always liked Egyptian history and it's shame they are doing another movie about Cleopatra would have preferred them have done a movie about Hatsheput were one would have dark skinned actress playing the part.
Lots of movies have been made about Greek and Roman history hopefully this will spark a trend for movie makers to look at Egyptian, Persian, Mesopotamia and others for movie making.
I have always liked Egyptian history and it's shame they are doing another movie about Cleopatra would have preferred them have done a movie about Hatsheput were one would have dark skinned actress playing the part.
Lots of movies have been made about Greek and Roman history hopefully this will spark a trend for movie makers to look at Egyptian, Persian, Mesopotamia and others for movie making.
The wickipedia article contains a reference to an article by experts on skull examinations. This article has nothing to do with wicki and cannot be edited!
It is not a question of people being "pained" it is a question of accuracy.There is no proof that Cleopatra was anything other than a caucasian woman. Furthermore, no-one has ever suggested she was any different. All these calls for Cleopatra to be played by a black actress are totally bizarre.
There is no proof that the skull from Ephesus is Cleopatra's sister. There is supposition that she is of mixed ethnicity (black African, Egyptian and European). The only thing that might give an idea of her ethnicity is her DNA - but since the skull is missing, attempts cannot be made to extract it from that.
There have also been claims that Queen Charlotte, wife of King George III and Queen Philippa wife of King Edward III were "black". There is no proof whatsoever for these claims and they appear untrue. Charlotte had an ancestor who came from North Africa, and investigations suggest she was a North African Jew. As for Philippa, the claims are based on a description that she had was "brown" all over. Her royal ancestors give the lie to this bit of guesswork.
It is not a question of people being "pained" it is a question of accuracy.There is no proof that Cleopatra was anything other than a caucasian woman. Furthermore, no-one has ever suggested she was any different. All these calls for Cleopatra to be played by a black actress are totally bizarre.
There is no proof that the skull from Ephesus is Cleopatra's sister. There is supposition that she is of mixed ethnicity (black African, Egyptian and European). The only thing that might give an idea of her ethnicity is her DNA - but since the skull is missing, attempts cannot be made to extract it from that.
There have also been claims that Queen Charlotte, wife of King George III and Queen Philippa wife of King Edward III were "black". There is no proof whatsoever for these claims and they appear untrue. Charlotte had an ancestor who came from North Africa, and investigations suggest she was a North African Jew. As for Philippa, the claims are based on a description that she had was "brown" all over. Her royal ancestors give the lie to this bit of guesswork.
Are you seriously suggesting that Dickens packed his pages with characters who were not white? Common sense tells me that Bill Sykes and Nancy were white. So was Fagen and he was also Jewish.
ETA: Unfortunately I cannot riffle through the pages of my copy of his book, since my son has it at the moment.
ETA: Unfortunately I cannot riffle through the pages of my copy of his book, since my son has it at the moment.
hitbrownie
New member
I think Liz Taylor played the role before, wihtout much controversy? Why the big deal now?
I didn't think Cleopatra was black either, more sallow - Greek/turkish complexion. I think Jolie is a mistake simply because I don't think she will carry a film like this, remember Alexander? She's more suited to slightly indie films or big action types imo.
I didn't think Cleopatra was black either, more sallow - Greek/turkish complexion. I think Jolie is a mistake simply because I don't think she will carry a film like this, remember Alexander? She's more suited to slightly indie films or big action types imo.
Charlie Scene [3LK)
New member
As I said before there was a BBC news article which references African ancestry of her mother and I have also seen information regarding a Channel 5 documentary. People should be more open-minded about this, especially when historians are beginning to suggest there is other evidence.
I doubt that these newer articles/programmes are produced by black people trying to make a point but by people who feel a desire to be fair about history. It is widely acknowledged now that some things written in the past were not strictly correct but based on how people of particular origins were viewed in society at the time. Even with growing evidence it seems that people prefer not to consider revised evidence based on their own opinions.
If people do want to say that things have potentially moved on, what is wrong with that? It helps no one to be narrow-minded. It suggests inflexibility to say well "No I won't even consider it because it doesn't suit my agenda".
For example, there have been plenty of great African civilisations that are now being referenced. There were more pyramiRAB in black countries outside of Egypt and this is also now being acknowledged. To refuse to take these things in just because it doesn't fit with what we were told as children is not very broad-minded.
I doubt that these newer articles/programmes are produced by black people trying to make a point but by people who feel a desire to be fair about history. It is widely acknowledged now that some things written in the past were not strictly correct but based on how people of particular origins were viewed in society at the time. Even with growing evidence it seems that people prefer not to consider revised evidence based on their own opinions.
If people do want to say that things have potentially moved on, what is wrong with that? It helps no one to be narrow-minded. It suggests inflexibility to say well "No I won't even consider it because it doesn't suit my agenda".
For example, there have been plenty of great African civilisations that are now being referenced. There were more pyramiRAB in black countries outside of Egypt and this is also now being acknowledged. To refuse to take these things in just because it doesn't fit with what we were told as children is not very broad-minded.
lemontartsue
New member
There were indeed black civilisations in Nubia which bore resemblances to the Egyptian ones. I don't personally have an "agenda". If I think some claims are bizarre and historically inaccurate I will say so. Currently, the claims about Arsinoe's ancestry are conjecture only - there is no proof.
As to the ancestry of Arsinoe's mother, I don't think anyone knows who she was or where she came from. They made an assumption about a skull, the identify of which they also made an assumption about. A further assumption was made as to the possible ethnicity of said skull. That's it.
No-one has seriously questioned Cleopatra's ancestry. Or her family tree.
But since the Arsinoe programme was made there are those who claim that Cleopatra is "black" and should be played by a "black" actress. I just find these statements absolutely and utterly stupid and ill informed - made on the basis of complete ignorance.
As to the ancestry of Arsinoe's mother, I don't think anyone knows who she was or where she came from. They made an assumption about a skull, the identify of which they also made an assumption about. A further assumption was made as to the possible ethnicity of said skull. That's it.
No-one has seriously questioned Cleopatra's ancestry. Or her family tree.
But since the Arsinoe programme was made there are those who claim that Cleopatra is "black" and should be played by a "black" actress. I just find these statements absolutely and utterly stupid and ill informed - made on the basis of complete ignorance.