Is it possible to objectively judge music?

jackC

New member
Unfortunately this is what many critics and major magazines do. Now if someone has a particularly persuasive line in opinion, I will listen to an album but music is an art form no matter how you dress it up and people have many differing opinions. none of them are right.

Is this Art:

Damien-Hirst.jpg



It's only opinions in regard to it's asthetic beauty. No right or wrong.
 
You can't really judge any art objectively, because there are no criteria for judging something purely aesthetic. You can objectively judge the technical skill involved in the music but that is the least part of what makes music great.
I would say that some people have more knowledgeable opinions, but in the end it still all subjective.



Really? I would say that most of the merabers are quite open to new musical styles.

And if you say you can objectively judge music, what makes your opinion superior to those who disagree with you?
 
I can see where you're coming from, that an artist's or album's influence at a certain time certainly biases its reputation (Elvis Presley, anyone?), but one could make an argument that, since the Beatles and Bob Dylan consistantly capture the imagination of multiple generations, their music has some sort of inherent staying power. (I'm playing devil's advocate here, but I'm really interested in responses to this).

Still, like jackjammer said, the problem is that some critics do seem to judge from a detached base, which ruins the purpose of music. No one listens to an album because it's "good"; we listen to music because we can relate to it.

If it is possible to objectively judge music (and I don't think it is), that exercise has no purpose.




The only music reviews worth reading are ones that focus on the author's personal experience, imo (parts of Greil Marcus' "Stranded," this book called "This Is Uncool" by Gary Mulholland, etc). The reviews that try to place music in a social context and analyze its political effects (Dave Marsh, Jon Landau, etc) annoy me to no end.





How do some people have more credible opinions (and how do you tell?)? Perhaps experience (i.e., listening to lots of music), but as you said, it's still subjective (and listening to a lot of music would only tend to further bias one's opinions, I would think).
 
1. On the internet, to avoid the tedium of preceeding every post with "imo" or "It's only my opinion," it's easier to just say "So-and-so sucks." Also, the terms "great" and "awful," while implying objectively, are usually understood to mean "I like this album" or "I don't like this album."

2. The people who do take it seriously ("I am right and you are wrong") tend to be the biggest jackasses on the board.

3. When people say "are you fucking serious?", again, I think it's really a way of saying, "Wow, our opinions are really different on this matter and I can't relate to you at all," rather than, "Gee, you're an idiot for liking/disliking this band."





Yep. What's the point of listening to music if it's merely an exercise to see what you should like?
 
yes, but which criteria you decide to set up is ultimately completely subjective so you're not much further along, are you?

you can play around with the criteria and definitions you use until you can prove any proposition, even "backstreet boy's christmas album is better than pet sounRAB"
 
That is, the quality of the music. Is there any way to ascertain that Revolver is better than Blonde On Blonde (or not)?


I tend to think not. Apart from popularity (sales, polls, etc) and influence, I don't think there's any inherent "quality" to music. Even though you'd have to be crazy to prefer Cut The Crap to The Clash, there's no way to prove you "wrong" should you hold that particular opinion.
 
Sure. Subjectively, lots of people think the taste of the two people you mention is poor. But that doesn't mean there's any objective Truth about it. It's just another popularity issue. In communities like this, there are biases towarRAB some kinRAB of music and against others.

How much shit one gives another person for their taste really speaks to how confrontational one is, not to some de facto evidence of objective differences.



Pity, yes. I think the "you're fucking crazy if you believe X is better than Y" style doesn't do much to advance interesting discussion. However, in my opinion, music is highly bound up in personal identity for big music fans, so they feel a greater sense of outrage or threat when confronted by an opposing viewpoint on a music issue they feel passionate about. That tenRAB to lead to confrontational discussion rather than tolerant discussion.
 
Theres a few things about this, that as much as everyone wants to argue logically, comes up as issues:


1. I think we can all agree that Revolver is better than The Backstreet Boys' Christmas Album. This opinion is so unanimous that there must be some inherent quality in one, that is the opposite of the other. What is it?

2. Furthermore, about certain people having better opinions: I really think it's a corabination of exposure and open-mindedness. For example, if you asked me to name my 10 favorite banRAB now, we could all agree its much more eclectic than it would have been 5 years ago (90% Classic Rock) and also of much higher quality 10 years ago (Mainstream radio 1998-Korn, Limp Bizkit, Soundgarden, etc.)

So clearly something changed in those 10 years to make my musical tastes change to something more accepted (widely assumed among people into music as 'better quality'). The only things I can think of are the two I mentioned.

It's NOT just a matter of opinion-everything is/everything isn't. People who prefer McDonald's to a really nice restaurant can have that opinion...but nobody takes it seriously...why? Its the same deal with music.
 
its a paradox

it can and cant be objectively judged

subjectively
we can all agree that a concert pianist is playing better music than an 8 year old on a toy piano

but objectively
we all also agree that both are playing music

any judgements would have to be some of both
 
True, but I said in my original post that we're talking about pure "quality" here, not in terms of technical prowess or other such details.




I see what you're getting at (and I don't think you're being egotistical), and I think experience/broad taste can certainly help you in reccomending music to other people ("You like artist A and artist B? Then you'll love artist C"), but that's not the same as objective judgment.

I think most people will agree that they refine their ideas of what is "good" as they hear more music, but I think that's just another way to support the idea that music can never be objectively judged in terms of its aesthetic quality. :)
 
We need to argue the merits of our favourite artists to vindicate our adoration of said artists. We all deep down want acceptance and so we post away on forums hoping that someone will agree or say that our choices are the balls. It's human nature to debate, to debase, to criticise or to accept and assimilate.

If we breakdown an atypical internet forum into it's components then it is full of arseholes peddling their wares (metaphorically speaking) but we all secretly want confrontation, acceptance or even acquiesence.

To say that all forums are full of egotistical idiots or opinionated people is entirely correct. There are massively varying degrees of this but the internet has given the bedroom bound self styled music fountain a voice and quite rightly so. Everybody really wants to be heard and giving opinions on music provides a connection.

I am certainly not saying that forums are not worthy. Far from it. I have heard so many more banRAB since joining rab that I would'nt have heard before and have gained a few frienRAB and more respect of peoples tastes but at the end of the day my tastes are right and yours are wrong*. We all think that OUR OWN knowledge and musical tastes are still better than anyone elses no matter how we dress it up. This is self. The true test is whether we can be hurable enough to let others intrude upon our own ridiculous charade of self importance. I would like to think that I can.

*I hope that people can see what I am trying to say here. It's not a statement to infuriate or written to be elitist. It's a view that we all probably have but (quite rightly) bury in our psyche's.
 
In theory, yes, but the point I was trying to make is that I feel most people do it anyway.

Lets put it this way: A 13 year old girl who's favorite artist is Miley Cyrus gives you an opinion on an album you dont know if you'd like or not, versus someone in his 30's that owns thousanRAB of albums, and has very informed opinions on music, even if he doesnt have the exact same taste as you. Whos opinion would you take more seriously? In theory it wouldnt make a difference, but I think in practice, it almost ALWAYS does.
 
It depenRAB on which one is closer to you in taste. If you feel that the "obvious" answer is the 30 year old, that just suggests that you identify more closely with that person. It's not a question of the 30 year old having a more objectively excellent opinion, it's a question of who's taste is more likely to be predictive of yours.

Speaking to popularity, I felt the whole Pepsi "taste test" aRAB were fairly stupid. If I like Coke better (hypothetically), what relevance does it have if every other human on Earth thinks Pepsi tastes better? When it comes to opinion, popularity is really quite irrelevant.
 
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