Is Cable Really "The Problem" Of What's Ailing Sat AM Cartoons on Broadcast TV?

M

Matt-U-_You_Rat_You

New member
Sorry, but I don't understand what you mean by "cable is part of the problem, not the solution". What 'problem' are you referring to??

Anyway, it's your fantasy money and you can do whatever you want with it, but wouldn't it be easier to make just 1 channel that runs all 3 of these schedules throughout the day (all ages animation in the morning/early afternoon, family shows and young adult shows in the late afternoon/evening, adult fare at night) instead of 3 separate mini-channels, one for each schedule? That would make programming a lot easier.

Also, there's a reason why specialty niche channels like CN, Nick or Disney are cable only; broadcast networks have to appeal to a broad general audience in order to survive. A non-cable network that's only designed to appeal to a small sub-culture wouldn't last very long. Just sayin'.
 
The FCC is really a non-issue. Seriously, when was the last time the FCC did something important in the world of television. But if the e/i requirements can't be removed, then maybe it can be reduced.

One other thing, people with money don't always do what we would consider to be logical. Like say time-warner for example. Is there anything logical about that company? Just wondering.


That question has a very long history to it. It's just my opinion, but I honestly think cable is part of the problem. I'll try to make it short.

Remember back in the 90's ABC was an independent network. Remember the Saturday morning lineup with Hanna Barbera shows, Bugs Bunny and a couple of independent cartoons - like Reboot for example.

Now, remember what happened to those shows when Disney acquired ABC. All of those shows were replaced with Disney shows. Eventually, HB went out of business, Bugs Bunny moved to cable-only channels and independent cartoons had a hard time broadcasting anywhere in the U.S.

But it didn't stop there. All sorts of companies were merging and cable channels were broadcasting the same thing as non-cable channels. And look at where we are today. I CANNOT FOR THE LIFE OF ME FIGURE OUT WHY THE FRESH PRINCE OF BEL-AIR IS ON SO MANY CHANNELS. That is what cable has done to television. It has reduce the number of shows available. Normally, you would think more channels leads to more programming. Not less programming.


Yep, programming would be a lot easier with 1 channel. But I'm looking for diversity of programming.


True, very true. But let's be honest. These niche channels are no longer what they use to be. CN is no longer a cartoon network. It's a kids network, just like Nick and Disney. And it's not really a niche channel if there are 3 of the same kind.

The reason why I'm interested in non-cable channels is because I consider PBS as a role model. That channel doesn't have to worry about ratings. They just show whatever they consider to be interesting and rely on viewer feedback. But I get what you're saying.
 
Yeah, perhaps you should contact the FCC about that in a clear, precise, unprofane way. They are looking for public feedback about the Children's Television Act and enforcement. Go to http://www.fcc.gov for the contact link.

Everyone should do it.

Well, for starters, those DC Universe animated movies are pretty good. Adult Swim still has a lot of great animated shows in production. They're releasing the Viz titles on a timely basis. The DC Comics titles are top-rate and becoming better. Looking forward to Where The Wild Things Are.

Time-Warner is a multiheaded chimera. Just because one head is acting like a fool and another is bullheaded doesn't mean the whole company is bad. It's poorly ran, yes, but there are plenty of other companies worse off.

For example, NBC Universal.

Okay, I have to interject myself in that one, and let me tell you what's right and wrong with what you just said:

- ABC was independently-ran, as were CBS and NBC, and yes, when Disney bought the network, they did foolishly get rid of their highest-rated series (ReBoot) and let their second-highest-rated series (The Bugs Bunny and Tweety Show) go in 2000. The latter wasn't entirely ABC's fault, but rather Time Warner's, who made Looney Tunes shorts exclusive to Cartoon Network around that time. Didn't last. Also, the E/I mandates played a vital role in the cancellation as well.

- Before Disney even touched ABC, NBC had already gotten rid of their Saturday Morning cartoons lineup by 1992. ABC was a significant competitor on Saturday morning against Fox Kids and later Kids' WB! even with the Disney shows. Of course, when Kids' WB brought in Pokemon in the winter of '99 and Fox and Saban merged units around the same time the E/I three-hour mandate became law, ABC kind of suffered. CBS dropped swords, and NBC continued to be a non-player. I know it's easy to blame Disney for the death of Saturday mornings, but like the murder of Julius Caesar, there were many killers and many knives. That reminds me . . . I have something to finish up on the site next month.

- Hanna-Barbera hadn't had a series on ABC since A Pup Named Scooby-Doo. And it's not dead. Okay, it's dead in name, but it's spirit lives in Cartoon Network Studios. And they're still making cartoons. Who knew?
 
You want me to say something nice to the FCC? As bad as the dtv transition was, as out of date as the e/i requirements are, as horrible as they were when they fined Janet Jackson for her wardrobe malfunction - you want me to say something nice to them? Let me think that one over.



Yeah, you're right. I omitted the e/i requirements. But I was giving an example of how cable was part of the problem with television. I don't blame everything on Disney, but let's face it. Disney and Time-warner are cable companies that messed around with non-cable channels. Can you imagine what ABC would be like today if it wasn't acquired by Disney? Or if it still had Bugs Bunny or any Hanna Barbera shows? Would HB have been acquired by Time-warner? Would independent shows still be on air? Just imagine all of the possibilities if Disney and Time-warner didn't go on a spending spree back in the 90's.

Back to the e/i requirement. It would have been a pain in the butt, but it could have been manageable. They could have negotiated it down to 1.5 hours. It could have been an educational segment like Schoolhouse Rock or a public service announcement. We'll never know because they decided to just give up. Afterall, what kid would want 3 hours of educational tv when they had 7 hours of school per day to begin with?


What? They still live on? No offense, but I think you said that backwards. They're dead in spirit, not in name. The last HB show I remember was Pirates of Dark Water (maybe around the same time as Scooby-Doo). I don't know what HB shows they have now, but I thought they were making spoofs or ripoffs of older HB shows.
 
You can say something without sounding like someone that makes Lewis Black, George Carlin, or Richard Pryor sound like choirboys. Being vulgar only makes you sound like a jackass, and profanity never gets you anywhere.

That is such a crutch the broadcasters use, and it's a faulty excuse as well. Cable didn't really become a factor in broadcast matters until the late 90s to the first part of this decade. Nickelodeon didn't program a Saturday morning lineup until 1999. Broadcasters blame cable for everything tha

Sure you don't

Disney wasn't really a factor in cable until they transformed The Disney Channel from a premium network to a basic cable network in 1997. Time Warner only had HBO until 1995 when they bought Turner Broadcasting, which more than quintupled their cable output. And even if you count the Looney Tunes library, they were on multiple outlets, including Nickelodeon, Cartoon Network, Fox Kids, Kids' WB, and ABC, until 2000.

Yeah. It'd be just like CBS or NBC, struggling to find an audience and without built-in franchises from cable networks, or Fox, which has nothing at all.

Bugs Bunny doesn't even air on outlets Time Warner OWN. Why would you think it'd be on ABC in 2009? And Hanna-Barbera was largely airing shows in syndication by the time their parent company, Turner Broadcasting, got sold to Time Warner.

Yeah. It was already owned by Turner Broadcasting and they were doing quite fine thank you.

They still make independent shows. They just can't find homes because the marketplace is dominated by three main voices in children's entertainment. But they're no longer limited to being on television these days anyway. Funimation, Cookie Jar, Classic Media, and others are doing fine.

You really ought to read the site one day. I've done that many times.

It's a draconian law that never should have existed. It was largely crafted by the Gingrich-led Congress using it to justify their need to get rid of PBS. Didn't work. They hoped it would bring kids to broadcast television. It drove them to cable instead.

Offense taken. And wow.

I take it you never heard of The Real Adventures of Jonny Quest, The Addams Family, What A Cartoon, Swat Kats, 2 Stupid Dogs, Dexter's Laboratory, Cow and Chicken, Johnny Bravo, and The Powerpuff Girls. All were made by Hanna-Barbera. Hanna-Barbera became Cartoon Network Studios right around the time Mr. Hanna died in 2000. Chowder, Flapjack, Ben 10: Alien Force, and the upcoming Generator Rex are the most recent productions out of Cartoon Network Studios.
 
Oh goodness Jeff, I don't know what happened just now. I said "NO OFFENSE". I also said it was my opinion, not something entirely factual. And I'll go one step further, one of my replies was for Silverstar, not you. I wasn't nitpicking at everything you said. I even agreed with some of it. But what in the world got into you?

Regarding the FCC - the point I was making is that I don't trust them. From what I see, they have a tendency to overkill things.

That's not how I remember it. It was more in the mid 1990's, not late 90's-2000's.

I don't blame everything on Disney. Again, it was an example. I think the problem with tv today is in part due to cable and due to the FCC. I was commenting on how Disney caused the downfall of ABC Saturday programming. I was also referring to a diversity of programming. I believe (my opinion now) that cable has limited programming, not increased programming.

Bugs Bunny aired this January for the New Year's Day special. That leads me to believe it could still air on ABC.

Fine, great. You're right about that one. HB was acquired by Turner. Now, back to what I was getting at. Will HB shows ever return to regular broadcast networks OR will they remain on cable?

Do they still make independent shows on ABC, CBS, NBC? I don't know, maybe. I've heard of Qubo, so it's possible. Now the part where you say "They just can't find homes because the marketplace is dominated by three main voices in children's entertainment". Wouldn't it be easier for them to find homes if they had more options - like non-cable channels? Channels not dominated by 3 main voices in children's entertainment. That is what I was suggesting in my original post.

Point taken. I won't disagree with you on that. However, consider this. If non-cable channels were able to make the e/i manageable, it could have retained kids. Maybe bring in more viewers. And that's something we'll never know.

Now below is the quote I was responding to...

The last HB show I saw on ABC was Pirates of Dark Water. The last HB show I saw on CN is probably Dexter's Lab/PPG. The reason why I say it's dead in spirit is because none of the current HB/ CN studios shows have the same charm or caretaking as the older shows.

I will say this. If I came off flippant, I apologize. Nothing I said was an offense to you personally. I was talking down on cable tv. But you seem to respect cable tv. So I'll just leave that alone.

As for your website, I don't know what to say about that. On one hand, I want to support you. What you don't know is that I've read your website for many, many years - including Thoughtnami. I've read many articles and posts you've written outside of your website. I've seen the many changes to the look of website and how it's evolved from toonami to what it is today.

Having said that, I've finally realized some things about you and posters in general. For starters, I'm not a completely factual person, I might have been misinformed on a few things. I tend to speak in general terms. There are a lot of details in the tv industry and with me - being a regular tv viewer - I'm not privy to all those details.

When I was referring to 1990's, I was talking about the decade in general, not every single year of the decade. There was a slow progression from broadcast tv to cable tv and cartoons suffered because of it. That was my general point. That is why I prefer regular broadcast tv. And one other thing, this is a fantasy thread.

Disagree all you like, but I'm not likely to see your website again.
 
No, it couldn't. Disney owns ABC now. There's no chance of the Mouse House airing a Warner Brothers cartoon series. That's why The Bugs Bunny and Tweety Show was dumped by ABC, certainly not because of ratings, as BB&T was the 2nd highest rated show on ABC's Saturday morning lineup at the time.

Incidentally, Cartoon Network is owned by Turner, who answers to Time Warner. ABC and Cartoon Network have nothing to do with each other.
 
I understand what you are saying, honestly. However, my quote was taken out of context. My original quote was about ABC not being bought by Disney. If there was no take over, there's a chance BB&T would still be on ABC.
 
I just answered a few things. I like television, and I happen to be passionate about the subject and the studios and networks that made it what it was. Where I was offended was the fact that you, at least from the way you wrote the comment, completely wrote off Hanna-Barbera for much of the 1990s leading into its metamorphosis into Cartoon Network Studios in this decade. I know folks that have been a part of the studio in the good times and the bad, many I'd like to consider as friends.

I agree on that point.

The Children's Television Act became more dominant by the end of the decade. Cable didn't compete against broadcast television until 1999. They did begin airing more original fare by the mid-1990s, but they were largely limited to Sunday mornings for Nickelodeon and USA, primetime on Cartoon Network, and Saturday afternoons on TNT, not Saturday mornings. Spongebob Squarepants was the first Nicktoon to air new episodes on Saturday mornings beginning in 1999. Before Spongebob, cable networks showed reruns on Saturday mornings because Saturday mornings belonged to broadcast networks. After the three-hour E/I mandate, cable networks saw a chink in the armor and began assaulting and exploiting the weakness. Cartoon Network, for example, is a relatively newcomer to original programs on Saturday mornings, with Pokemon, a carry-over from broadcast, becoming one of their biggest shows.

That's how I remember it.

Yeah, and the thing is you did kind of make it seem like Disney was alone in making their lineups exclusively first-party shows, when they weren't. Kids' WB started that trend when they took Animaniacs from Fox Kids and centered its whole original image campaign around the series. The Animaniacs' watertower was a prominent part of the graphics on Kids' WB until the 4Kids hijacking. When Saban merged with Fox Kids, that block's lineup was largely first-party shows with the third-party shows getting shifted around and having smaller audiences.

When Disney bought ABC, Disney still had shows on CBS, particularly Aladdin, The Little Mermaid, and Raw Toonage as well as a daily syndicated block. Disney lost The Bugs Bunny and Tweety Show not because they wanted to, but because Time Warner wanted sole rights to the property on their stable of networks. Afterall, it was still ABC's highest-rated series.Their other shows weren't a slouch either. ABC was a solid number three, right behind Fox Kids and Kids' WB.

Really? A one-time airing of a marathon convinced you it could still air on ABC? Okay. But, here's the thing. Time Warner is half-owner of The CW, and the Kids' WB block that Warner Bros. ran hadn't aired Looney Tunes shorts since 2000.

But Hanna-Barbera was largely syndicated in the '90s, and the last Hanna-Barbera cartoon seen on broadcast television was the Powerpuff Girls in 2002. Though Foster's Home For Imaginary Friends from Hanna-Barbera's successor studio Cartoon Network Studios aired on Kids' WB in 2005, so technically, that would be the last. Although you could argue that, at least in syndication, The Smurfs and the Hanna-Barbera-produced Berenstain Bears were on in most markets in 2007.

Well, CBS, NBC, PBS, and The CW air shows not from the Big Three. Disney, Warner Bros., nor Nickelodeon. All of CBS's shows come from Cookie Jar Entertainment (including its DiC unit) and the qubo shows on NBC come from Classic Media (including its Big Ideas unit), Nelvana, and Scholastic. PBS's shows are from Sesame Workshop, Cookie Jar, Studio B, WGBH, Jim Henson Productions, and NBC Universal. Independently-produced shows are on the air. And The CW airs mostly fare from 4Kids Entertainment.

Which is why you missed The Addams Family, which aired for two seasons after Pirates of Dark Water left. A Pup Named Scooby-Doo was also back for a half a season on the channel.

That's because the studio was renamed Cartoon Network Studios in 2001 after the death of Mr. Hanna, like I mentioned earlier. Everything made by Cartoon Network Studios since then . . . that's from Hanna-Barbera. Except the Scooby-Doo and Tom and Jerry projects. That's from Warner Bros. for some reason.

I don't know. Foster's had a charm of its own. Billy and Mandy were pretty well-taken care of to me as well.

And I'll tell you again, I like television. I like cartoons on broadcast television. I like cartoons on cable television. It's a great medium that is Big Media are trying to cut down for some odd reason. And that's why I'll defend television until my death.

Thank you.

Okay.

I liked broadcast television too until about the late-90s when more original cartoons unhindered by lackluster educational standards began to come to cable. The '90s were pretty good for the most part, but broadcast television got lazy. Ironically, while you blame Disney for ABC's downfall, ABC's programming was actually pretty watchable during their One Saturday Morning era. Heck, it was actually some of the best E/I programming on the air in the country. Loved Pepper Ann and Recess. It was only when they decided to drop the good cartoons in favor of bland Disney Channel reruns that ABC Kids became totally unwatchable, save Power Rangers.

Okay. Hope you come back one day.
 
I think the main issue here is things got way off track. I gave a brief example of why I thought cable was part of the problem with tv. I chose not to include CBS, NBC, Fox, WB and UPN just so that I can keep things short. I don't mind you elaborating. I welcomed it. But I'm not sure how you honestly thought I blamed everything on Disney. Now, I need some clarification on the next 2 quotes.



Please elaborate on what you just said. Are you saying TW wanted BB&T solely on their networks and yet they, chose not to air it since 2000? This is why is say cable is part of the problem with tv. If ABC was still independent, it's quite possible that BB&T would still be on in 2009.

Alright. Based on this, Turner is showing HB shows sporadically, not consistently like back in the 80's-90's. I guess that's fine. But that wont help viewers to keep up with the brand.

I missed the Addams Family because I wasn't interested in it. Scooby-Doo was ok.

About CN Studios, you're right. HB is now CN Studios. In my opinion, changing the name of the studio doesn't make it the same studio. Foster's and Billy and Mandy are ok shows. I'll watch re-runs of them, but they're not likely to become classics. That's why I said HB/CN studios is dead in spirit. They were shows to put on the air, not shows that will likely last (again, my opinion). I will say this though, I think Megas XLR will have longevity. I consider it to be a HB show.

And ironically, this quote kind of sums up my original reply to Silverstar.
 
I love Megas, so it really pains me to prove you wrong here, but Megas XLR ended on January 15, 2005, and hasn't seen the light of day since then. Foster's and Billy & Mandy stand much more chance of one day being considered "classics" than Megas ever will, for reasons of sheer longevity and exposure.


I'm not trying to be snarky here, honest injun, and this isn't aimed at anyone in particular, but I've read comments like this on numerous message boards, and it never fails to boggle my mind the number of people who judge whether a CN Studios produced show is a true Hanna-Barbera production solely by whether they like it or not. One's personal preferences are irrelevant to what studio produced a show; all of the shows produced under the banner of Cartoon Network Studios (Johnny Bravo, The Powerpuff Girls, Megas XLR, Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends, Squirrel Boy, Camp Lazlo, Ben 10, Class of 3000, Chowder The Marvelous Misadventures of Flapjack, et al) are technically HB shows, as HB was absorbed into Cartoon Network Studios in 1999. The CN Studios shows are latter-day HB shows, regardless of whether we personally "consider" them to be so or not.
 
I see what you're saying. To a degree, I agree with you. But here's one oddity I noticed. Remember Courage the Cowardly Dog? That show was off air for awhile. For some reason, this year (maybe some of last year), they decided to show re-runs of it. I think Courage is (or will be) a classic, even though it hasn't had much exposure for the past several years. This gives me reason to think Megas will be a classic too.

And you're right. My personal preference may give me a bias towards other CN studios shows. So this is the best way I could put it...

Let's say the Ford Motor Co. created 5 cars. Each with their own style, but they all have the same Ford standards and quality control. Now let's say Ford creates 2 more cars that didn't have the same standards and quality control. In total, Ford has 7 cars. But only 5 of them are really considered to be Ford. The other 2 are considered to be sub-standard or inferior cars. Bottomline, a Ford is a Ford is a Ford. But not all Fords have that same feel.

I don't know if this example helps. And you are right - all of those shows are latter day HB shows.
 
Okay, you probably realized that I moved these thread posts from the original thread "If You Had Some Extra Money . . . " into a new one. Why? Because it was steering away from the original conversation and into a totally different direction. Instead of continuing it there, I brought it here so it would be such a distraction.

It's a good dialogue, so I'll continue.

But by choosing not to include CBS, NBC, Fox, The WB, and UPN does make it seem like you were blaming everything on Disney. If that wasn't your intention, then perhaps you should have talked about those other channels instead of just ABC.

No, that's not what I'm trying to say. They haven't aired Looney Tunes shorts on broadcast television since 2000 and they could have aired it on Kids' WB. However, the management of Kids' WB didn't want Looney Tunes on the block anymore in any capacity largely because they found success with Pokemon and wanted to put more of those types of shows on their block. They could have easily placed The Bugs Bunny and Tweety Show on Kids' WB, but Kids' WB didn't want it. THAT'S why it became exclusive to Cartoon Network. The market also duplicated the Pokemon approach as Fox Kids also aired more Japanese game-based acquisitions and other channels. If anything, you can blame the lack of Bugs Bunny on broadcast television on 4Kids Entertainment's successful Pokemon management rather than Disney taking it off.

And again, how did you come up with that conclusion? You keep on parroting "if ABC was still independent, they'd still air The Bugs Bunny and Tweety Show." How did you come up with that hypothesis?

Hanna-Barbera oversaturated the market for three decades, and by the 1990s, they didn't have as many venues in 1996 than they had in 1986. Studios like DiC, Bohbot, Saban, Warner Bros., and Disney had dominated the marketplace in all the major open slots on broadcast television at the time. By the time Turner Entertainment bought Hanna-Barbera, the studio was on the verge of collapse. If Turner hadn't bought Hanna-Barbera, the studio would have gone the same route as Filmation, Terrytoons, or DePatie-Freleng. Don't know those studios? Of course you don't.

But it was a Hanna-Barbera show. Just because you weren't interested in it doesn't mean that it didn't exist, which you kind of alluded to when you said the last Hanna-Barbera show on ABC was The Pirates of Dark Water, which it wasn't. The last Hanna-Barbera show on ABC was repeats of A Pup Named Scooby-Doo in '95.

So you think shows you're still looking at years after they were made done in the tradition of the comedic shorts of the Hanna-Barbera studio in its golden age aren't going to be classics? They may not be classics now, but wait about a good five, seven years from now. They're going to last which is why they tend to go back to them from time to time. Those shows connect with viewers. I love Megas XLR. It was one of the best shows to grace the halls of Toonami. But it's almost totally forgotten by many viewers no thanks in part to Cartoon Network. They don't even repeat it on Boomerang (Duck Dodgers, which was made around the same time, is on, but not Megas). It'll be a cult classic for sure, but it doesn't have a legacy like Foster's and Billy and Mandy will likely have in the years ahead.

But Courage had more episodes than Megas. Courage has been repeated off and on years after its cancellation. Megas XLR hasn't been on for over four years and aside from the characters' cameos in Fusion Fall, it'll probably never be seen on television again. Shame, I know.

Let me illustrate that point to make MY point about that.

Again, using the Ford model, lets say Ford makes six different models. The F-150, the Taurus, the Mustang, the Town Car, the Explorer, and the Focus. Over time, they have many makes, many models. Some models are completely new and have a varied effect on consumers ranging from love to loathe. Other models are remade, remodeled, and updated to cater with the times to mixed results. Other models disappear forever whether they were great like the Thunderbird or terrible like the Pinto.

But despite the changes, continuations, revivals, and cancellations, they're all still Fords.
 
Cable is not the problem. In fact, I'm not sure that there IS a problem. Broadcast TV is almost dead, IMO, especially for animated fare. This is because almost everyone has cable. So, it's only natural for the Saturday morning block to migrate to cable. Modern broadcast TV cynics have no time for animation.

Tomato
 
While cable is indeed a contributing factor to the decline of animated programming blocks on the major network, it's not entirely to blame. The networks themselves fell off of their own programming when they realized that acquiring cable style blocks of E/I programming is easier and cheaper than producing their own (ABC Kids is just The Disney Channel for people who don't have cable), and it's obvious that the only reason why network like CBS and NBC have Saturday morning kids' blocks at all is because they're required to by the FCC.

My prediction is that eventually all TV is going to become digital cable. There will no longer be any distinction between the 2.
 
Actually, the E/I rule doesn't require the networks to do a darned thing.

The rule applies directly -- and only -- to the affiliates. It's the lazy affiliates that wormed their way into MAKING their networks do their E/I work for them.

There's NO hope for Saturday AM cartoons to ever come back to broadcast TV (except for the current 4Kids/CW arrangement). If ABC were still independent, they'd simply be providing E/I content from some other provider, most likely in a similar arrangement that NBC and CBS have had for years.

The combination of the E/I rule and the stations' never-ending quest for increased revenue IS the problem. Cable is only guilty of being there to pick up the pieces and taking the mantle for animated entertainment.

To look for other reasons is simply pointless.
 
Well, IMO its just that fact that Broadcast Telivision is becoming Absolete. I mean with todays technololgy, theres really no need for it other then promotion, you can get most of Your favriote shows on DVD, or downloadthem tou your ipod, PSP, 360, etc, or just watch them on an online stream (although those arn't always legal...) but you get my point, its not soley cable, its just advancments in technology in general.:sweat:
 
Another contributing factor for less cartoons on Saturday mornings is that more kids do sports in the mornings than they did 20 or so years ago.
 
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