Fibio the Torturer
New member
...inclined)? Me and a friend have been involved in debates over morality. He upholds to an entirely subjective morality system, i disagree, hence the debates. He is an atheist (a really really weak one), i am a theist (please do not judge either way), when we argue over morality, it eventually evolves into a debate over God (this is not a question about the reality of God, so please do not change the subject if you are tempted), he basically says that God allows or commits evil and immoral things in the world...now i may be wrong, but isn't that a bit inconsistent with his own view of morality, because in his view no Good or Evil really exists, it is merely an opinion, therefore not possibly even true? The following are a variety of quotes from our discussions:
"Years back, humans were weak on their own but together we were strong. I believe that because we bonded years back ago that is why we have morals. This is why we don't rape others because that would send them against us. Once they're against us, we will be exiled from the group and left to die. Hence the survival instinct of morality and what we deem is right and wrong. Other humans are born with stronger views and others with weaker views."
"Good and Evil are ever changing. Think about Marijuanana. A hundred years back we saw it as good, today we see it as an evil drug which kills many lives.
Think about the animals we see. Good and evil can be taught. "No, bad dog. Don't jump on him. Now, out!" And the dog is sent out. Due to natural selection, if he wants to stay inside where food and all that is, he will stop doing what ever it is which gets him outside. It's basic psychology. We do what we do to survive. Every instinct we were given. Not by a deity (well maybe, who am I to say?) but I believe through our environment."
" Surviving is the meaning of life. Every animal has the same point - to survive. As do humans. The meaning of life is to survive hence our natural fear of death, our survival instincts, what we perceive as good and wrong all help us to survive."
"there was this little girl, the age of 2, and her Daddy (rich man and a very good man. He donated a lot of riches to charity) had just arrived home on his helicopter. His daughter ran up to him and he, being excited to see her, threw her up in the air... he thought he was out of the helicopter zone but he wasn't. The blades were still turning fast. You get the image. What I don't understand is what happens to the little girl. Since we go to heaven if we've chosen the good path but she being 2 hasn't had the chance to live yet. She couldn't have decided if she was going to be good or evil.
Why couldn't god protect her? Why didn't he get his wife to say: "stop!" And if she ends up going to heaven; why does god decide that fate for her since she hasn't had the chance to prove her faith. And if you say "god is all knowing, and she must have been destined to be a good girl" then why did he allow her such a cruel fate before she could even live?"
"There's another true story about these Christians all in a church. And this mad samurai came in (he was severely mentally ill) and carved up about half of them. They died. These were law abiding Christians. Why didn't God stop him? Free will doesn't have anything to do with that; he chose to let him kill most of them."
"Evil is a subjective, man made concept. Ask an Israeli to name an evil person. He will point to a muslim. Ask a Palestinian to name an evil person. He will point to a jew."
"I don't understand why the concept of Good and Evil have to exist with a God."
"They are men. And those men made up their own sense of morality. They changed murderous suicidal events into something good. Nazi Germany; the more Jews they killed, the better. Their morals were different. The horrors that undertook those days with torture to those poor Jews... ): it's disgusting. I hate thinking about it. That's why good and bad are subjective to humans. There is no universal good and bad."
"If murder is wrong why would they burn people they deemed to be witches and think it's good because they are ridding the world of evil. When in actuality, witches didn't exist. If god created a sense of good and evil, they would know that killing that woman was wrong."
"The thing I see is that good and evil changes so very often. The things we see as good and evil vary."
Now judging from the above quotes: how could then he condemn the actions of God? or even of Hitler and Stalin?....yet he does...is he being contradictory and inconsistent? judging by the above quotes, is that really an entirely subjective morality he is describing? ...please post any arguments for and against an absolutely subjective morality, or moral relativism.
"Morality is arbitrary. It's up to the individual to judge what is sin. There is absolutely no cosmic list of rules that apply to all. The truth is far less petty." ---however if this is true, then you couldn't classify the torture of a small child to death as wrong, because the individual (according to subjective morality, which is based on whims, desires and personal preference) who commits such a thing indeed may find it Good, who is to say your view of the matter is correct?
"We are not held to mankinds morality.
Jehovah God created us and gave us His moral standards to live by.
We cannot be the judge, only God can."
---thanks for commenting, however arguing this point to an atheist would be futile, considering they don't tend to believe in God.
Jim Romo --thank you wholeheartedly, you raise several very valid points. I understand how a relativist is a self-refuting position
"Absolute subjective anything is an oxymoron. There's certainly no absolute OBJECTIVE morality. Whoever said evil was a subjective, manmade concept is true though" --thank you for commenting. I agree with your first two points, however your third i somewhat agree to.
"Years back, humans were weak on their own but together we were strong. I believe that because we bonded years back ago that is why we have morals. This is why we don't rape others because that would send them against us. Once they're against us, we will be exiled from the group and left to die. Hence the survival instinct of morality and what we deem is right and wrong. Other humans are born with stronger views and others with weaker views."
"Good and Evil are ever changing. Think about Marijuanana. A hundred years back we saw it as good, today we see it as an evil drug which kills many lives.
Think about the animals we see. Good and evil can be taught. "No, bad dog. Don't jump on him. Now, out!" And the dog is sent out. Due to natural selection, if he wants to stay inside where food and all that is, he will stop doing what ever it is which gets him outside. It's basic psychology. We do what we do to survive. Every instinct we were given. Not by a deity (well maybe, who am I to say?) but I believe through our environment."
" Surviving is the meaning of life. Every animal has the same point - to survive. As do humans. The meaning of life is to survive hence our natural fear of death, our survival instincts, what we perceive as good and wrong all help us to survive."
"there was this little girl, the age of 2, and her Daddy (rich man and a very good man. He donated a lot of riches to charity) had just arrived home on his helicopter. His daughter ran up to him and he, being excited to see her, threw her up in the air... he thought he was out of the helicopter zone but he wasn't. The blades were still turning fast. You get the image. What I don't understand is what happens to the little girl. Since we go to heaven if we've chosen the good path but she being 2 hasn't had the chance to live yet. She couldn't have decided if she was going to be good or evil.
Why couldn't god protect her? Why didn't he get his wife to say: "stop!" And if she ends up going to heaven; why does god decide that fate for her since she hasn't had the chance to prove her faith. And if you say "god is all knowing, and she must have been destined to be a good girl" then why did he allow her such a cruel fate before she could even live?"
"There's another true story about these Christians all in a church. And this mad samurai came in (he was severely mentally ill) and carved up about half of them. They died. These were law abiding Christians. Why didn't God stop him? Free will doesn't have anything to do with that; he chose to let him kill most of them."
"Evil is a subjective, man made concept. Ask an Israeli to name an evil person. He will point to a muslim. Ask a Palestinian to name an evil person. He will point to a jew."
"I don't understand why the concept of Good and Evil have to exist with a God."
"They are men. And those men made up their own sense of morality. They changed murderous suicidal events into something good. Nazi Germany; the more Jews they killed, the better. Their morals were different. The horrors that undertook those days with torture to those poor Jews... ): it's disgusting. I hate thinking about it. That's why good and bad are subjective to humans. There is no universal good and bad."
"If murder is wrong why would they burn people they deemed to be witches and think it's good because they are ridding the world of evil. When in actuality, witches didn't exist. If god created a sense of good and evil, they would know that killing that woman was wrong."
"The thing I see is that good and evil changes so very often. The things we see as good and evil vary."
Now judging from the above quotes: how could then he condemn the actions of God? or even of Hitler and Stalin?....yet he does...is he being contradictory and inconsistent? judging by the above quotes, is that really an entirely subjective morality he is describing? ...please post any arguments for and against an absolutely subjective morality, or moral relativism.
"Morality is arbitrary. It's up to the individual to judge what is sin. There is absolutely no cosmic list of rules that apply to all. The truth is far less petty." ---however if this is true, then you couldn't classify the torture of a small child to death as wrong, because the individual (according to subjective morality, which is based on whims, desires and personal preference) who commits such a thing indeed may find it Good, who is to say your view of the matter is correct?
"We are not held to mankinds morality.
Jehovah God created us and gave us His moral standards to live by.
We cannot be the judge, only God can."
---thanks for commenting, however arguing this point to an atheist would be futile, considering they don't tend to believe in God.
Jim Romo --thank you wholeheartedly, you raise several very valid points. I understand how a relativist is a self-refuting position
"Absolute subjective anything is an oxymoron. There's certainly no absolute OBJECTIVE morality. Whoever said evil was a subjective, manmade concept is true though" --thank you for commenting. I agree with your first two points, however your third i somewhat agree to.